Grammar question for native speakers

Nob   Monday, November 11, 2002, 21:53 GMT
Well, the first one would sound the best...

The second one is ok, too.

The third may be acceptable, but I wouldn't recommend using it.

So, they're already listed the way they sound the best (to me)
1
2
3

:)
Jim   Tuesday, November 12, 2002, 07:37 GMT
Ryuta,

You're welcome.

I think that you're pretty much right with "I believe that it depend on the contexts."

When you say or write "a barking dog" not only could you mean "a dog that barks habitually" but you could also mean "a dog that is barking now" depending on the context. The same could go for "a walking figure (or person, man, woman, etc.)" I think these are a couple of exceptions to the rule.

You often here the expression "Let sleeping dogs lie." This is a metaphor and we really wouldn't be talking about dogs it means "to not talk about things which have caused problems in the past, or to not try to change a situation because you might cause problems" (Cambridge Dictionary) This is another exception.

I don't know how true the statements "A barking dog is a healthy dog." and "A barking dog seldom bites." are but I think that you are correct with your interpretation of them.

I'd prefer "woman standing" to "standing woman" but "woman who was standing" seems far better than either to me.

You can find heaps of example contexts including whatever phrase you want by seachhing the net. Remember to put inverted commas (quotation marks: " ") around your phrase.

For example, I did a search for "walking figure" and found "May friend's husband stopped, thinking the person had car trouble, and was going to allow the walking figure to catch up." at the site:
http://www.wirenot.net/X/Stories/Ghost/Ghost%20T/Thedeathonscullroad.shtml

For "working man" I found "Throughout the nineteenth century, Australia developed a reputation as a working man’s paradise." at
http://john.curtin.edu.au/shapingthenation/htm/theme1.htm
and "A working man is a healthy man" at
http://www.msnbc.com/news/606262.asp?cp1=1

For "entertaining person" I found "Although I still do not like his style of music I thought he came across as a friendly and entertaining person with a great sense of humour." at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/reviews/1671138.stm

These are just a few examples. There are hundreds of others out there.

As for the equivalent of the present continuous tense in Japanese, correct me if I'm wrong, it's just the "te" form of the verb plus "iru" (or "imasu" if you're being polite). So "doing" would be "shiteiru", "eating" would be "tabeteiru", "going home" would be "kaeteiru", etc. You don't need to write/say "tokoro" at all. Why would you when "tokoro" means "place"? I don't think this is at all inconvienent and I doubt that it had anything to do with contact with the Europeans.
Rupert   Tuesday, November 12, 2002, 18:46 GMT
If you translate "I'm eating an apple", "watashi wa ringo wo tabete iru tokoro desu." is correct. Alternatively, "watashi wa ringo wo tabete imasu." is also correct.

"I was eating an apple when I received a phone call" is "denwa ga kakatte kita toki, watashi wa ringo wo tabete iru tokoro deshita" is more natural than "denwa ga kakatte kita toki, watashi wa ringo wo tabete imashita" as the former translation really puts more emphasis on the ing form.

Do you see what I mean? I speculate "tokoro" was introduced in order to translate the ing form.

Yes, it has nothing to do with Europeans but the English language which is the only European language that has the ing form.
Ryuta   Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 16:21 GMT
Hello Nob, Jim and Rupert,

Nob,

Thank you for your answer!

Jim,

Thank you for your thorough explanation, again. It really helped me understand this matter.

As for your understanding of the present continuous tense, you are absolutely right with this part:

-->>"doing" would be "shiteiru", "eating" would be "tabeteiru", "going home" would be "kaeteiru", etc.

Note 1: strictly speaking, "kaetteiru" is the correct form.
Note 2: when speaking, in an informal situation, most of us would say "shiteru", "tabeteru", "kaetteru" without pronouncing "i" before "iru". This "iru" form as opposed to "ru" is often used in a formal situation.

But I cannot say I agree with this part:

-->>You don't need to write/say "tokoro" at all.

"tokoro" would be often used when putting more emphasis on a point of a series of acts that you are/were doing. But, stricktly speaking, your comment is correct because "iru" or "ru" here conveys itself the meaning that the act is in progress. I think its a matter of your attitude. But I'm afraid I cannot explain clearly when to use which--"iru" vs "iru tokoro". If I have a context, I can tell you which way of saying is better. Anyway, both expressions will work fine in any situation (IMO), though my Japanese grammar book gives some restrictions on the usage. I don't care with this rule. Both works fine.

Rupert,

You are absolutely right with this comment:

-->>If you translate "I'm eating an apple", "watashi wa ringo wo tabete iru tokoro desu." is correct. Alternatively, "watashi wa ringo wo tabete imasu." is also correct.

The second passege is quite right, but I would translate "I was eating an apple when I received a phone call" as "Ringo wo tabete itara denwa ga kakatte kimashita", though your versions sound perfectly fine. There are many ways of saying the same thing. Anyway, as you pointed out, "tokoro" puts more emphasis on "ing" form, I think.

As for the historical aspect of this "shiteiru tokoro", I'm afraid I can't give the right answer. Though I'm Japanese, I know nothing about this historical issue. Please excuse my ignorance.

Hope my comment makes sense. And hope my English makes sense. I still have a lot of trouble expressing my thoughts in English. I teach myself for the most part. It's pretty hard but I enjoying studying it.
Ryuta   Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 16:25 GMT
Oh, no. I made a mistake.

-->>most of us would say "shiteru", "tabeteru", "kaetteru" without pronouncing "i" before "iru".

should have been :

most of us would say "shiteru", "tabeteru", "kaetteru" without pronouncing "i" before "ru".

Sorry about that.
Rupert   Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 18:16 GMT
"shiteru" as opposed to "shite iru" is more common in speaking. In prose, it is usually recommended to use the latter form "shite iru". Knocking a vowel such as "i" and "e" in order to speak fast can often be observed in the Japanese language. "shiteru" for "shite iru", "machigatta" for "machigaeta". What do you think, Ryuta? In English, consonants are often neglected whilst vowels are far more emphasised in a very relaxed accent.
Jim   Thursday, November 14, 2002, 03:36 GMT
Ryuta and Rupert,

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I didn't know the "shiteiru tokoro" form. I've only ever heard the plain "shite(i)ru"/"shiteimasu" forms or maybe I haven't been listening hard enough. Before I'd read your explanations I'd have mistranslated "Watashi ha ringo wo tabeteiru tokoro desu." as "I'm a place where people are eating apples." but it's a dirrerent "tokoro". Of course, calling yourself an apple-eating place would be pretty silly but if you dropped the subjuect it would become "Ringo wo tabeteiru tokoro desu." and I'd have thought that you were taking about a place where people are eating apples. Ryuta, your English does make sense, it's a lot better than my Japanese.
Tara   Thursday, November 14, 2002, 08:24 GMT
Hey!

My name is Tara and i am 22 years old. I live in Sweden.