Foreigners in England/France

Raph   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 10:09 GMT

1 point for Stéph, yeah good guy!
Might Mick   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 10:50 GMT
Mam'selle Stéph,

Ah I struck a nerve in you. The truth hurts?
There are some "Pied-noirs", so what? What's your point?

As for Occitan, I don't claim to know "many things or anything" as you put it. I say what I think, whether I'm right or wrong, and if people disagree with me then they can challenge me. If I'm clearly wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it.

You should leave your own country some time and a learn a little more English before putting on such airs in public.
stéph   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 11:33 GMT
It clearly means you don't know what you are talking about, the evidence is : there's a long time french are mixed with north africans. It won't be in 50 years.

I said you should not speak about what you don't know, it's better to learn before to talk. You can't speak about a subject you don't know. Why? Because what you will say will be wrong.

I have left my country and i am actually working in Spain.

Latin people free, outside of Anglo colonialism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damian   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 11:44 GMT
Mademoiselle Steph: My sentiments and reactions are the same as Mick's.
My only contribution to this particular topic in the thread: if I stay in my own country all the time I am unlikely to gain knowledge and experience of my fellow humans elsewhere and get to know anything of their ways and language. That would mean I would not be able to make any valid comments. I would have to stay in Scotland and make do with trying to toss the caber (not easy when you are only 1,54m tall!) or learn the Highland fling, something I really, really haven't tried to do yet.

If you stay around, M'selle, I will be more than happy to help you improve your English skills, for what it's worth. I've been speaking English now for...well, 21 years I first year consisted mainly of a lot of meanningless gurgles and coochie-coos. In a Scottish accent, though. :-)
Might Mick   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 11:55 GMT

OK settle down, you don't need to get cranky or personal with me. I'm not making any of it up. It's out there and everyone's talking about it. It's a demographic trend that's confirmed by many sources. Here, take a look for yourself...

"...Of late, it has frequently been suggested that France--and increasingly, not only France but western Europe as a whole--is heading for a Muslim majority..."
"...Besides this general attitude of the West toward Islam, the swift changes in the demographic statistics of the Mediterranean region is also causing alarm in France and other countries of the northern Mediterranean, such as Italy, Greece and Spain..."

"Ten years from now, the Mediterranean will be an Islamic, if not an Arab, sea. The swift rise in the Muslim population has raised alarm among the European countries of the region...
"Some estimates hold that within 25 years, one in four residents of France will practice Islam."
stéph   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 13:02 GMT
I never said you were wrong, i said that fact exists since the beginnig of mediteranean european countries since many and many centuries. Bµut it doesn't mean anything, is Spain muslim? When you think how many times spanish have live under muslim control, did they become muslims?

At list, france is not the country where people practice a religion. Less and less people use to have one, even muslim's childrens. The fact north african are mixed with french is right, the fact they will become muslims is wrong.

I apologize for all shit i said before.
Might Mick   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 13:32 GMT
Yes Islam in Europe has been around for many centuries and Spain has been under Islamic rule. However, I was only talking of the demographic aspect today which is very different from the past and is changing very rapidly.

Part of the immense change is due to many Islamic families having typically 7 to 12 children - this is by religious virtue. The statistical average is 2.2

France is declared a secular or laical country, but more and more people practice Islam. By absolute numbers, this is actually greater than those who practice other faiths. (We can see these affects of Islam on Marseille - praying in the streets halting general public activity including traffic, and the number of minarets which leave us with a very different impression from the old.)

Apology accepted.
Paul   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:12 GMT
Hi Mick & Stef

Religion is a very difficult subject to predict. Islam is going through a Religous revival. As a consequence the is a rise in the number of deeply religous or fundamentalist Muslims. There is also a corresponding separation of a lot of Muslims away from their religous roots. Sometimes it even happens in the same family. This process is called polarization.

What will be the result of this upheaval in France, 50 years from now.
G-d only knows.
You can't assume temporary trends will continue to some logical conclusion.
People adjust and the second generation will usually absorb some of the
local culture and fit in better.

As a guess, I would expect that most of the Muslims in France, in 50 years, would be relatively moderate.

Regards, Paul V.
Damian   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 14:21 GMT
I really can't come to terms with ANY damn religion! I don't care what religion anybody is as long as they are human and decent in behaviour but from what there is all over the place that is not going to happen. For thousands of years millions of people have died because of religion. So it will continue :-( I was brought up RC but I am choice. I can't stand all the crap involved. No religion is immune from it. I shall die a happy heathen now but one that (hopefully) has never hurt or harmed anyone intentionally or unintentionally. A thread/posting in this forum upset me a lot yesterday....thankfully it's been deleted now. Why are some people like that? Let's talk LANGUAGES! :-)
Jordi   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 21:40 GMT
Spanish history as any other is a complex subject. I must remind you that in 1609, 1/3 of the Spanish population in many of the kingdoms (plural) were expulsed to Northern Africa in what we in Catalan, one of the Romance languages widely spoken in this peninsula, call "Decret d'Expulsió dels Moriscs". Since all these Latin words (Decree, Expulsion, Moorish) have passed to the English language it shouldn't be necessary for me to translate. The fact is 95% of Spanish citizens have been baptised in a Catholic church albeit a few college Mormon preachers from Salt Lake City you'll even find in medium size towns in this part of the world. Spain, as it is today, is perhaps the most "European" country on the continent, apart from Scotland or Ireland, of course. No that that makes me especially happy but things are as they are. It must be said, though, that things are changing fast and that a new European paradise has been discovered on this side of the Pyrennees. It's called "quality of life" and better wages and lots of sunshine include a new Germanic Invasion, which we hadn't had since the 5th century AD. Hundreds of thousands of Anglo-Saxon and Eastern, Western and Northern Germanic tribes have decided to make Spain their home. Including some Celtic and Gallic tribes as well. You're all welcome: "benvinguts" in my Catalan or "bienvenidos" in Castilian Spanish. Just make sure you adapt and when in Rome do as Romans do.
Might Mick   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 06:53 GMT
True. In general you can't read much into temporary trends. But in the reality of this situation, is it really temporary?

China's population explosion may have been considered temporary at a certain stage, but look at its extent. It was eventually acknowledged that its growth couldn't be controlled intrinsically so an artificial measure was devised. i.e. the government imposed the "one child per family" policy. So, a closer insight into the nature of the culture (it's customs, virtues, honour system, rituals, etc) at play is a better indication of what's to come.
nic   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 08:04 GMT
Things are changing, muslims had many childrens in the past. Nowadays the french with north african origins (Algeria, Tunisia....) do not have especially 6 or 7 childrens today. Those i know are like the french, 1 or 2 childrens. You must think about the fact Marseille is a special town really different with the others. It has been all the time city fulled of greeks, italians and arabs. If you want the french to be africanised, it cannot be only from Marseille. I only know Marseille and Lyon who are really full of algerians. en you see how french are racist against algerians, the mix you arev thinking about will be very difficult. Today we don't see so many french living with north africans, of course there are some, but not so many. When you know algerians are living in France since 60 years. When you compare to portuguese and italian integration, as you can see, their integration is not so easy.
Axel   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 13:23 GMT
Do you think Europe is the reason why Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are well accepted in the French society while the maghrebins are not? Our languages and our cultures are very closed too: that could be an other reason to explain it.
nic   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 14:26 GMT
Hi Axel,

You are right about the fact french, italians are especially closer, and spanish portuguese are too. What i said was just, i don't think there will be more and more muslims in France. For many reasons it cannot. One of the reason is the new algerian generation is different and not so closer with religion. For example, most of women do not want to live like their mother.

Look for example with protestantism on 18th century, how many protestants lived in France at this time, how many today : a fistfull in the south and no more.
Bill   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 17:22 GMT
"Look for example with protestantism on 18th century, how many protestants lived in France at this time, how many today : a fistfull in the south and no more."

Well yes, but that's because the Protestants were either driven out of France, forced (i.e. tortured) into conversion, or massacred by the Catholics.