Foreigners in England/France

Might Mick   Friday, June 18, 2004, 10:31 GMT
We see a socialist France for things like e.g. most of it's employed youth are civil servants and the incapicitation of private entreprise because of all the control the state has, taxes are higher and the economy is poorer. But I didn't want to go into that really ...

I was getting into the demographics, not nationhood, just that - Demographics, when considering the isolation of communities that can't integrate into the mainstream but have their own self sustaining societies. I'm relating to the aging French population and its declining birth rates where for this group, the vast majority don't identify themselves as a "mix" but as Catholics (as you say) due to their heritage. Then theres the other side: the relatively high birth rates among the other groups who identify themselves differently(by their own past and heritage) and contribute to the high immigration. The essence of this is "heritage" not practice of religion and how the 2 heritages that polarise themselves, at least along religious lines. Compare the former Yugoslavia.

""When i say french will disappear, i don't you understood what i wanted to mean, french will disappear like polish, german, italian, spanish, english and many others will. It's just a question of evolution and logic.""
- Next millennium when we have logic circuits integrated into our brains and everyone uses telepathy? I don't think anyone here was thinking that far ahead. Just a few generations down the track, that's all.
nic   Friday, June 18, 2004, 11:41 GMT
For “socialist” I knew “americans” had a different meaning about that word. Thank you for the explanation.That’s ok if you don’t want to talk about that.

About integration, maybe you know it but the way people are integrated is different from US.
When you say “, the vast majority don't identify themselves as a "mix" but as Catholics (as you say) due to their heritage”. That’s precisely because they have been integrated they feel like that. That’s typical French integration. There aren’t communities in France like there are in U.S. People do not especially speak about their origins. When I was at school, I was with portugueses, Italians, Spanish, polish, Algerians, Vietnamese, Tunisian and morocco childrens. They all had a definition ao them as French but in a different way of Americans. Of course some of them practice for example musulmanism. But there’s no difference in life (it does not mean there is no racism), there’s not difference in the way you live in the same place, same buildings. Same games in the same places all together. Algerians don’t live especially only between Algerians. Those who encounter any difficulties to integrate themselves are not north Africans. They are here since 60 years and the new generations are for most of them well integrated. At list, emigration in France do not accept anymore north Africans. There’s been a common decision between Spain, Italy and France to stop that immigration. Good or bad? I have no answer. It’s practically impossible for someone from Algeria, Morocco to go in Spain or France today.
Those who do not have any official papers to stay in France are checked out by planes.
In the past immigration was very important in France, that’s what made the country in fact. But today is different, immigration is seriously stopped by the right government. Especially in the crisis we are living.


You don’t have to feel sorry. I have never seen a country with a so wild nature. Scotland is beautiful. I personally prefer Scotland in comparison of Ireland. People are simple with a strong culture. People are really friendly nad the country as I said is really nice.
Might Mick   Friday, June 18, 2004, 13:43 GMT
You paint a different picture to the one we see in the media and to how other French people I've heard speak. That doesn't mean your account is unusual. Do you live in regional France or in a big city?

Well I couldnt really speculate for America or Americans because the dynamics there seem unpredictable for its sheer size. To me, it looks far more complex because it's so big, population wise and geographically. As you head from one coast to the other, each state is like a separate country. But I haven't been there, so maybe it's just a bigger version of France in effect. I'd like to know what they think.

PS: Is telepathy what you meant by language evolution and logic?
nic   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:09 GMT
Some people use to say France and America are in some parts very different and in some others very closer.

I grew up in a popular arrondissment in Lyon, i live in Paris actually. Paris is Paris and the France is the France. That's an important thing to know.

I don't think i have a different point of view, what i said do not mean there's no racism, of course there is. Points of view are all the time different, if you ask to someone who is racist he will tell you no one is integrated. About immigration, those french who say France is the country where foreigners are welcome. Yes if........they have money and ....from the european community. Immigration is over in France.
Damian   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:17 GMT
Nic: how sweet of you to say those things....thank you. I am proud of my heritage and I have already put my order of priority in another posting - Scot/Brit/Euro etc Each country has it charm and individuality. I believe there is a great difference in France from one region to another. Imagine how different say...Lille is from Marseille?

Just one simple are we Scots do you reckon??? LOL. Don't worry, I know what you mean, mon ami! :-) Anyway, I wish I was a learned as you guys are on all these matters....I really am simple! I must read up a lot more or go out more, perhaps both, but it's fun reading all the posts.

One problem though....this forum is getting addictive for me! Do I need to lower my intake? Are there any counselling sessions I can attend? Will group therapy do anything for me? Is there such an organisation as Antimoon Addicts Anonymous? :-) It's worse now I don't have lectures to attend ..just a supermarket checkout dealing with the unpredictable British public! Nah, they're great really on the whole....and I have a laugh with/at some of the crazier ones sometimes. Cheers
Might Mick   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:23 GMT
LOL Damian.

Maybe all these Francais de souche travellers are quietly racist :)
and that's why they are travelling - to get out (just kidding). Though most of them aren't Marseillais or Lyonnais.
Paul   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:34 GMT
Hi Nic + Mic
I think of France also socialist in the idealistic sense as opposed to the political sense. We we hear that france is attempting a 4 day work week,
we think of France in the Vanguard of concern for its citizens and its society. Even tho it may be in the Vanguard of Social issues it is in the rearguard of Language change. It is fighting a strong holding action to preserve the prestige and purity of its own languange, against English.
I suspect that might eventually change, if the English get their act together and consolidate their influence in the world. But I don't think, repeat think that this will happen in my lifetime.

Regards, Paul V.
Paul   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:49 GMT
Hi Nic

I didn't know that there’s been a common decision between Spain, Italy and France to stop that immigration from North Africa.

It seem to be Good at this time.Especially given the current political crisises over, Iraq, Israel and Islamic terrorism. have no answer. It’s practically impossible for someone from Algeria, Morocco to go in Spain or France today.
You said,
"Those who do not have any official papers to stay in France are checked out by planes." Do you mean chucked out or sent back?

In Canada, we find that the selected immigrants that go through a screening process are usually fine, and make excellent productive and loyal citizens.
Unfortunately, most of immigrants brought in through a family or marriage connection to the original immigrant can not be as well screened.
And we notice that that some people with a distant family connection do come in as visitors and hang around or go back and forth. Most of our security and crime problems are associated with the unofficial immigrants.

Regards, Paul V.
Might Mick   Friday, June 18, 2004, 14:55 GMT
But Paul V, what did he [Nic] mean by "french will disappear like polish, german, italian, spanish, english and many others will. It's just a question of evolution and logic." ? A Sci-Fi thing?

Well they reckon there are 1 million unofficial immigrants in France, but of course they don't really know. It's like the unemployment figures, they're manipulated so they become deflated.
Paul V   Monday, June 21, 2004, 07:35 GMT
Literacy seems to be on the decline, but English speech will stick around for a while.
If you don't get space on the internet, maybe that is the end? That Nic talks of.
nic   Monday, June 21, 2004, 08:24 GMT

I meant "sent back"

Politic has changed in France since Miterrand and has changed a lot since Chirac. More are enterprises are privatized, social security has changed in a bad way. People has to work more in the way they will be in retirement later. It’s getting more and more liberal. We are living the what lived the british with thatcher a few years ago.
But I think with the French mentality, it won’t be so easy to reform everything. And I personally think the French strikes are in a fact a good thing. It shows to politicians the democracy is not especially their own propriety.

Might Mick

Maybe it's Sci-Fi, but it's not far from logic. That’s what happen to every society which is not able to create some new things in art, philosophy…, which looks too much her past and does not do anything for its present. That's what happen actually to U.S, France and occidental countries. The production of nothing reflects our future.

Our language will disappear, why? Because a part making money (good or bad?) there’s not any occidental societies which are able today to propose something cultural. We know the culture is extremely important to promote a country. What do promote U.S.A, France, Germany or whatever you want? Nothing. They just tend to stay between themselves, this is not an expansion , it’s a regression.
The most powerfull country is of course USA, and I think they will expend but not culturally. So, I don’t think their influence will be able to still alive because they propose a “non culture” (I don’t say they do not have a culture, please do not make a confusion).

Do you speak the same language of your ancestors? You just have to compare german there are 60 years and nowaday for example. We are living in a century where minorities try to rediscover their own language and identities, which is not a benefict to countries like France for example but for many others (Spain, Italy...).

A part Paris, Lyon, Marseille and Lille, most of the french cities are small. Their inhabitants are most of the time "ignorants". I personnally don't really like small french towns, most of the time there is nothing interesting to do. Some of their inhabitants have never been outside of France. That reflects their ideas.
I think that’s why some of them leave their country to see how it is in some other places.

Of course, we know there are innimigrants people in France. Do you think these people can be integrated to the French society? Not declared = no social security, very bad salary, no rights. I don’t see any integration so I don’t see how they could influence the French society. These people are just exploited.


You are welcome. I have been to Edimbourgh many times, especially in a pub I don’t remember the name. But there were may thinhs attached the wall, keys, bicycles…. And an amazing collection of bottles of whiskey. It’s the oldest. The last time I have been there, I thought : “may be I will meet Sean Connery.” In fact he was in Edimburgh the same time.
Do you know Damian, the way you pronounce Connery, in French it means Sean Bullshit (connerie).

Migh Mick   Monday, June 21, 2004, 08:51 GMT
With all the modes we have of communication and information today you'd think literacy would be at its highest level ever. (in industrialised countries)

If you consider all the means of storing and reproducing information (books, newspapers, TV, radio, internet) our languages have become more consolidated and better conserved than ever before. Thanks to these technologies, we have a static environment for language to be maintained and is far less prone to distortion than in the those times where many people were illiterate.

German is still essentially the German of 60 years ago. Of course cultural references change and modes of language-use vary every decade or so but it remains by and large the same. For example I could communicate with someone from 200 years in the past with the same essential elements of English. (minus the tech. terms, slang, cultural references, etc)

So when you mention evolution, it all depends on the time frame you're talking about. A few generations from now, say 100 years, we'll still be speaking the same major languages (French, Spanish, Polish, English). But in 1000 years, evolution to something entirely unimaginable is possible. Yeah definitely.
nic   Monday, June 21, 2004, 09:24 GMT
Yes, but will the people in a few centuries dispose of our technologies to access it? Conservation is a good thing but… nothing is immortal.
Example, do you remember these famous “disquettes” we used in the eighties? Imagine if you want to see what’s there inside these famous disquette nowaday. Do you still have the necessary machine today?
Migh Mick   Monday, June 21, 2004, 10:38 GMT
It's not the fact that we have a particular technology today and different one tomorrow or "the disquette" today and "the CD" tomorrow. The principles of any technology will always give us the same tools of storage,retrieval,reproduction. Before one piece of hardware becomes obsolete, its contents are passed on to the next to find a better "home". So the next generation of a particular hardware item will be faster and more accurate for keeping the same important data. E.g. films in reels from the 1920s are remastered and put on DVD. E.g. you backed up all your disquettes on CD-ROM when burners first came out.

Technology will always be humming away and changing in the background doing its thing. Early, primitive technology was stone carvings for example and simply "word of mouth" for carrying language. Today it's not just that our technology allows for reproduction that is more accurate, faster and voluminous but what's so different is that it also provides for continuous, distant and simultaneous diffusion e.g. TV/radio broadcasts, daily newspapers, telephone. This means that a setting for language has been consolidated, so language has a far greater chance of remaining undistorted and being conserved compared to older times.
nic   Monday, June 21, 2004, 11:44 GMT
I am not sure. In France, they ahe lost some informations because these disquette were not readable. Not because they did not have the machines but because these disquettes have lost their "magnetism" i don't know if it's the proper word. Our new technologies do not help us more than other societies to keep alive our memory. Look at old photographs, can you assure me all of them have been kept. And if, without distorsion. About distorsion, there will be always one. Why? Because a reproduction is always a reproduction and won’t be the original one. At least it shows something which do not reflect the original one and its reality. Of course you can keep something saved, but without its own context, what does it mean to you, to your century? Absolutly nothing, the signification as we know is the most important. If you are not able to read it, what’s the utility. Will the next Americans in 1000 years be able to understand an image from our century. I don’t think. Maybe a few archeologists.
Things die, technologies want us to believe the opposite.

Another thing, imagine draws from Michel Angelo saved on a computer, the images will be out of their context without its signification.
What is the interest to store many many things if people won’t be able to understand it, old movies for example are difficult to understand because of the way they use images to show the story.
Some movies made in black and white have been colorized when it has moved on other supports. Well done, that’s it. But there’s one thing you cannot save, it’s the fact with a certain support you watched the movies on a certain way. You don’t watch a black and white movie on the original support and on a new support. Especially when you know that when they move the document from the old support to a new one they erase the “defaults” inherent to the original support. So they don’t keep the document to its original form, they change it, that’s different.

Look at the Louvres, they have many things to show but it's without the context. Religious paintings have been made for being in churches. So there's distorsion before it's saved by technology.

Our technologies do not make a better world because we save (try) to save our past. We don’t save more things than in the past. Architecture is one of the best example, if you compare Paris in the 20’s and nowadays what has been saved? A few things, and some other few things on protographies, that’s all.

Technologies just allow us to have another perspective of the world, it does not save anything.