Table and label

R344050   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 03:52 GMT
Don't the words ''table'' and ''label'' rhyme. The cambridge dictionary says that they don't. The cambridge dictionary lists the pronunciation [teib.l] for ''table'' but for ''label'' is lists [leib..l]. Similarly, according to it ''metal'' and ''mettle'' are pronounced differently- metal=[met..l] and mettle=[met.l]. And also it lists the same thing about ''medal'' and ''meddle'', ''medal=[med..l] and meddle=[med.l]. And it also says that ''apple'' and ''chapel'' don't rhyme. Apple=[@p.l] and Chapel=[tS@p..l].

What is going on with this dictionary? Isn't it wrong or something. ''table'' and ''label'' definitely rhyme. Don't they sound like they rhyme to you? And aren't ''metal'' and ''mettle'' homonyms? Dictionary.com says, yes. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=metal

Links-table http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=80929&dict=CALD

Label- http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=80929&dict=CALD
Jim   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:15 GMT
For help with Cambridge's phonetic symbols look at this page.
http://www.dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm
Here's where you'll find that the small schwa has a specific meaning. What this dictionary is saying is that /leib..l/ and /leib.l/ are both acceptable varient pronunciations of "label". In other words "label" rhymes with "table" for some but not others.
Juan   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:17 GMT
A short schwa! What next?
Juan   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:22 GMT
There are too many vowels that sound almost identical in the English system. It's my worst nightmare :-(
Jeff   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:22 GMT
It's impossible to pronounce the L in english without doing a short schwa sound.
R344050   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:24 GMT
And does that also mean that ''metal'' and ''mettle'' are not homonyms for everybody. So, that would mean that for some people the syllabic ''l'' is always written ''le'' and if it's not ''le'' it's not a syllabic ''l''. Is that some phonemic distinction like ''w'' vs. ''wh'' or ''cot'' vs. ''caught'' made by some people. ''Metal'' vs. ''mettle''.
Juan   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:25 GMT
I was under the impression that it was a standard schwa. Actually, I'm not being completely honest. It sounded like either the vowels in BALL or perhaps even pot but ever so slightly shorter.
R344050   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:25 GMT
It sounds like ''label'' and ''table'' rhyme for everybody.
Guz   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:32 GMT
The standard american pronunciation for table, able, and lable is with the .l sound,
Jim   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:32 GMT
Have you met everybody?

/.l/ is a syllabic consonant rather than a short schwa sound followed by /l/
Jeff   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:36 GMT
If you where talking to me Jimy,
what i meant to say is that the L sound comes with a short schaw sound already ( which most natives don't even realize)
R344050   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:38 GMT
Is the distinction between ''metal'' and ''mettle'' like the distinction between ''whine'' and ''wine''. ''el'', ''al'', vs. ''le'' distinction and ''wh'' vs. ''w'' distinction. Is that why ''label'' and ''table'' aren't spelled as ''label'' and ''tabel'' or ''lable'' and ''table'' because they don't rhyme for everybody?
Juan   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 04:38 GMT
This is the first time I've come to the realisation of the "syllabic constant". Like they say, ignorance is bliss. I find it a tough concept to grasp. I've never had to deal (or at least I though I wasn't dealing with it) with these sort of phonome or whatever it is called before in my life.
-le vs. -el, -al distinction   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 05:17 GMT
I've noticed that your spelling system proposal seems to include many distinctions made around the English-speaking world. Does it spell ''metal'' and ''mettle'' differently? Distinguished by some as [met..l] and [met.l] and spell the endings of ''table'' and ''label'' different ''pronounced by some people as [teib.l] and [leib..l]. If it doesn't then I good solution would probably be to use ''yll'' for one and ''yl'' for the other.

metal-metyl
mettle-metyll

or

metal-metyll
mettle-metyl.
-le vs. -el, -al distinction   Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 12:44 GMT
Jim, I've noticed that your spelling system proposal seems to include many distinctions made around the English-speaking world. Does it spell ''metal'' and ''mettle'' differently? Distinguished by some as [met..l] and [met.l] and spell the endings of ''table'' and ''label'' different ''pronounced by some people as [teib.l] and [leib..l]. If it doesn't then I good solution would probably be to use ''yll'' for one and ''yl'' for the other.

metal-metyl
mettle-metyll

or

metal-metyll
mettle-metyl.