Slavonic Language Groups

Damian Alexander   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 15:48 GMT
<<height has got nothing to do with greatness>>

Sure! Who intimated there was any connection? My only link with Alexander T.G. is the common name (middle one in my case) and now you come to mention it, the height as well. There the resemblance ends as far as I'm aware. Actually, I am 2cm taller than the GREAT Alexander was.

Actually, there is another characteristic I share with the Great Alexander but I will not go into that one.
Memnon   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 17:29 GMT
What? You're an alchy? A megalomaniac? A slayer of rivals and kin?

I guess this explains your dinner party guest list. ;-)
Damian   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 18:32 GMT

BINGO!!!! You have me sussed and I come clean....I confess to all those and more......well, I didn't bump off all my kin...I'm quite fond of my two grannies. Oh, and the brill Bucephalus, of course. My dinner party guest list must have been memorable.....I forget who I invited now and there's no way of checking by dredging the archives..... it fell victim to mjd's lethal axe. From memory it was suitably described by someone on the thread.

Where's your other half this evening, Memnon?
Mi5 Mick   Friday, August 13, 2004, 05:58 GMT

Of course Israel existed in antiquity. It's referred to in the New and Old Testament (not that I'm a bible basher) and other literature as the "Land of Israel" while "Israel" was also used to identify the people. That's obviously why they consider it their country.

It's true that I was considering peoples (their heritage, religion, lineage, etc) as you demonstrated with the Jews, but as you imply, nationality and regionalism are important too for defining identity. On the other hand, as Jordi explains, he feels Catalan regardless of territorial borders or citizenship and some peoples feel this way too. That is why I believe the Copts do consider themselves as different "Egyptians" and as you've said before Alsatians consider themselves a different kind of French people.
nic   Friday, August 13, 2004, 07:44 GMT
Mi5 Mick and Jordi,

I understand Jordi's feelings about being catalan and i never said anything bad on the subject. What imean is, if take Jordi's example, Jordi feels catalan at 1st, spanish at 2nd and european at 3rd. So you are definitely more spanish then than a catalan who was born in France. Have a simple example, let's name him Sébastien, he feels catalan at 1st, french at 2nd and european at 3rd. Un tournant de l'histoire l'a fait devenir français, un autre tournant a fait que Jordi est devenu espagnol.

Being catalan from Spain is different form being catalan from France, because you have grown up in 2 different systems which have designed different ways, cultures, views.

The most spectacular one is Germany, 40 years separated by a wall have made 2 different kinds of Germans who encounter difficulties actually for beiing together, with sometimes racism, it has created 2 different "identities" with a german who identifies himself as east german with its values and are different from the other Germany.

I personnally feels at 1st french, 2nd languedoc and 3rd european. I personnally think it's a good system, it's not necessary and it will be considered as ridiculous if the people from Languedoc were in war against auvergnats. It has been the case in the past.

At least (is it correct Mi5 Mick), i consider (it's the case) all european having common origins. It doesn't mean (of you know it), because you are french you do not have some ancestors from Germany, Spain or somewhere else.

The thing i don't like are guys who become agressive on subject like that and would like to be in war (i never said it's your case Jordi), that's the case of a famous french breton named Le Pen.
Jordi   Friday, August 13, 2004, 08:01 GMT
I'll surprise you. I feel a citizen of the world first (human being), a European second (a continental cultural feeling), a Catalan, third (a National feeling) and, last and definitely least, a Spanish citizen (a political entity that gives me a passport and an identity card). I'm closer, no matter how you look at it, to my Catalan friend of Perpinyà than to somebody from a Spanish region 1000 km. from where I am. I'm quite sure Sebastià from Perpinyà feels exactly the same as I do. I happen to know a Sebastià in Perpinyà. And Le Pen, sorry for that, only feels French and doesn't speak or feel Breton. You know, when you belong to a small cultural community you become quite humble and that isn't the case with Le Pen. The same way Bush only feels he's American.
Easterner   Friday, August 13, 2004, 08:39 GMT
Talking about identities, I think you normally always identify yourself the most with the region you are from. I myself will always feel as a Hungarian from Voivodina, even if I have meanwhile become a citizen of Hungary, and whatefer part of the world I may live in the future. This means that I will always be closest to the people of Voivodina (which is a multi-cultural community), regardless of their nationality (Serbian, Hungarian or other). Actually this territory changed "ownership" more than once during the past century (originally it was part of the former Kingdom of Hungary, later Austria-Hungary).

As for citizenship, I used to feel a Yugoslavian while I lived there, while now I identify myself more with Hungary, though I'm still attached in some way to the whole of ex-Yugoslavia (despite the political developments lately, for me it will always be one country). This is on the same level with my European "citizenship", and finally comes my attachment to the rest of the world. Being part of an ethnic minority will always make you feel more of a cosmopolitan than being part of a majority group (which I can also conclude from the posts of others here who equally belong to a minority).
nic   Friday, August 13, 2004, 09:43 GMT
You don’t surprise me, and somewhere it’s the same for me, I feel closer to south French than the north ones, I feel closer to north Italians or Spain, as my grand father said most of people form Langue d’Oc have common origins with “spanish” (I know very badly Spain).

I think politics which have been developed in Spain and France are totally different and of course it “interferes” in our own opinions and occurs diffenrences . That’s why English, French, Spanish … have different views of the world and why it’s totally subjective.

As I said before we all the time identify ourselves from the past, I identify myself to Languedoc, but people from Languedoc refers to what Romans?, romans to what Etrusques? Etrusques to what?………..

Remember what said Mark Fisher? And what I answered to him, I don’t have any problems to use English with people. But when I meet someone who’s arrogant, feels superior and wants to impose his own language to the rest of the world, I have a reaction, that reaction will be the systematical use of French. You said you will have the same reaction with the use of catalan.
What will you do if you are with Spanish people (Andalusian, Catalans, Castillans…) and you meet someone’s like M Fisher, won’t you use Spanish? It’s just a question not an affirmation.

I remember you said some French (I am not one of it, and I don’t know one of them) feel superior of Spanish which makes you laugh, you refer to Spanish, don’t you?

Do old Catalans consider themselves as Spanish or Catalans or both. I met an old man from Andalousie who considered himself as Spanish and no more.

Can we compare Lepen and Bush, who knows? There is 1 thing i am sure, they are b.....d.
Jordi   Friday, August 13, 2004, 10:59 GMT
Many older and younger Catalans feel Catalan only. Catalonia was independent from the rest of Spain --it was a confederation of independent states-- until 1714 and Spanish only became official in the 18th century. Catalan was also official in the Spanish Republic in the 1930s and was banned by Franco. It has been official again since 1976. So history is different on this side of the Pyrennees. More than 50% of the Catalan population votes for Catalan Nationalist parties (centre and left wing since there is no right wing nationalism in Catalonia. The real right wing, in Spain, has always been Spanish nationalist.)
People in Andalusia or Castille feel Spanish first. The reasons are quite obvious. They feel at ease in a state that has been created to their fashion.
I normally speak Catalan around me and in the streets and I change languages when a visitor doesn't understand me. Many people who live in Catalonia have learnt and speak Catalan. It's a living language.
nic   Friday, August 13, 2004, 12:16 GMT

I knew of course there were different languages spoken in Spain so I knew catalan is an alive language actually. I had a Spanish teacher for 2 years who was Spanish.
In France as you know it, it has never been a confederation or even a federation. That’s I guess the big difference to the other side of Pyrenees.
There is one thing which has never been clear in my mind with Navarres.
Sanja   Friday, August 13, 2004, 14:32 GMT
I agree with Easterner, I used to feel Yugoslavian when it was still the same country, now I feel Bosnian even though I'm still attached to ex-Yugoslavia in some ways and sometimes I miss those old times.

(Easterner, da samo vidis kako sam snimila dobar CD, sve one najbolje stare pjesme iz bivse Juge, uglavnom rock'n'roll muzika iz osamdesetih.)
Miquel   Saturday, August 14, 2004, 14:05 GMT

Nic, excuse me, but I feel: first, catalan; second, european. Without any intermediary steps.

Miquel - Mallorca
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Damian   Thursday, August 19, 2004, 18:43 GMT

Thank you very much for those links on Bulgaria. That area of Europe fascinates me and I have only been there Romania with a school extremely poor country but even more beautiful. The home of Count Dracula in the Transylvanian Alps. The Romance language is more readily pronounced and learned because of the Roman alphabet but I only got to using basic greetings and pleasantries.