Friday, November 05, 2004, 19:09 GMT
If John says "Ms JH has lived in Japan since 1987", shall I ask where Ms JH is living now? Or shall I suppose that Ms JH still lives in Japan, so I don't need to ask?
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About SINCE
Friday, November 05, 2004, 19:09 GMT
If John says "Ms JH has lived in Japan since 1987", shall I ask where Ms JH is living now? Or shall I suppose that Ms JH still lives in Japan, so I don't need to ask?
Friday, November 05, 2004, 19:42 GMT
The sentence you quoted implies that JH still lives in Japan, because the verb was "has lived". If the verb were "had lived" that would say that JH
no longer lives in Japan: They had been friends since birth (until he died). They have been friends since birth (and still are).
Friday, November 05, 2004, 23:22 GMT
Thank you D.
But how about the following one in dialogue? It seems Since and Present Perfect imply a finish or completion. A: John's just been fired! B: What! What a shame, he's worked here since 198
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 01:39 GMT
B is just speaking as though John still works there. Since and present prefect imply continuining action, never completion.
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 01:41 GMT
*continuing
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 02:17 GMT
The A/B sentences that TB posted are fine. Native speakers
don't follow all the rules all the time, and the A/B exchange is one situation where the need for 'had' to be in the past is more important than the rule that 'has' is not used for completed actions. That is, B could not use the word 'had' because the firing was not, in his view, in the past. The firing was in the present, because A said John had _just_ been fired. Consider: A': John was fired two weeks ago. B': What a shame. He worked here for 25 years. Here, B' uses 'had' because the firing was in the past. B' could not use the word 'has'.
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 06:34 GMT
From D:
> the rule that 'has' is not used for completed actions. > What does this mean? I don't understand at all.
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 21:00 GMT
Ex: He HAS been there.
Ex: He HAS worked in that factory. Ex: She knows Japanese because she HAS lived in Japan. HAS is used for completed action.
Saturday, November 06, 2004, 22:56 GMT
TS: The way I see it, the sentences in your last post
don't represent "completed actions," they describe how something was at a particular moment in time. For whatever reason, so long as the decription remains valid English uses 'has' and doesn't consider the action to be completed -- after all, if I have been in Japan I might go back. The sentence (1) He had arrived at the store two times. is different than (2) He has arrived at the store two times. because the verb had in (1) tells me that I should view the sentence (1) as being completed in the past. I don't expect him to arrive again; instead, I expect something else to happen. In sentence (2) the verb has tells me I should imagine that he is still going, and he might arrive again. For example, I have seen two movies this month. I might see more movies -- the action "seeing movies this month" is not completed until the month is over. Next month, I can't say "I have seen two movies last month" because the action "seeing movies last month" is completed. I can never see another movie last month. This is the rule I alluded to in a previous post by saying " 'has' is not used for completed actions." If you don't see what I mean by "completed action" then it might be better to forget about that description of the difference between had and has, and find some other way to see how they are used.
Sunday, November 07, 2004, 00:27 GMT
I am afraid I cannot wholly agree to you. The HAS examples I gave are completed actions. Or else, we don't have completed actions at all.
> (2) He has arrived at the store two times. > I think it means only that the action has completed two times. The explanation is normal and acceptable. > (1) He had arrived at the store two times. > > I don't expect him to arrive again; instead, > I expect something else to happen. > The expectation is not possible because it can be never realized, unless you know he has passed away. Even he has moved to another country, he will still return and visit the store. How can you expect one will not go to a store again, if he has been there for a few times? Completion cannot be judged by such standard.
Sunday, November 07, 2004, 02:26 GMT
>How can you expect one will not go to a store again, if he has been there >for a few times? Completion cannot be judged by such standard And yet it is. English speakers will consistently say "I have been to the store three times" as long as there is a possibility they might return, and "I went to the store three times" if there is no possibilty they will return. Moreover, they will expect other speakers to follow this rule -- they will interpret what they hear in light of this rule. If you don't want to agree with me, that's fine. I am only trying to describe the reasoning that native speakers use to decide whether they can use has/have.
Sunday, November 07, 2004, 08:36 GMT
Thank you D. You and 'Someone' seem to make it quite clear that Present Perfect, especially with Since, denotes an unfinish. But after a man passed away, for another example, in many epitaphs they still use "He has lived here since 1976" to state the last place he lived. And the epitaphs could last for some few years. If so, the use of Since is not exactly as you describe it. It is also used for something completed.
Is there an explanation?
Tuesday, November 09, 2004, 08:12 GMT
"He has lived here since 1976." could not be said about a dead person. It would have to be "had".
Tuesday, November 09, 2004, 08:39 GMT
No, it is very frequent that we use HAS LIVED in obituraries:
Marcella L. Harris (nee Dial) ?83 of Avon Lake, formerly of Cleveland, passed away, Sunday, March 14 at Community Health Partners Hospital and Surgical Center, from complications of pneumonia. Mrs. Harris was born May 9, 1920 in Cleveland and HAS LIVED in Avon Lake since 1958. http://www.buschfuneral.com/obits/obituary.html?obituaryid=2327 ----------- Mr. Durham was a native of Kentucky and came to Oklahoma at the time of the opening in 1889 and HAS LIVED in Payne county since then. http://myweb.cableone.net/4jdurham/durham/durhamaj.html ----------- She later moved to Corinth, MS, and HAS LIVED in Memphis, TN since 1987. http://home.att.net/~SGTAYLOR1/gascoigne/dwghartfordcur.html ----------- He married Myrtle M. Perry on June 26, 1929 and she passed away on September 16, 2001. He HAS LIVED in Newton Falls since 1997 formerly of Huddy, Ky. http://www.williamsondailynews.com/041016.html I can claim as many examples as you want.
Tuesday, November 09, 2004, 12:06 GMT
I don't think that obituaries are the best place to learn English --
they are often written by family members or by the staff of the funeral home. It isn't surprising that people, in a time of grief, use language that implies that the dead person isn't really dead. Some of the obituaries above seem to use "has lived" to mean that the person lived in that place until death -- this could be just to save space in the newspaper, where you sometimes must pay by the word to publish an obituary. In non-newspaper contexts, English does not allow you to use the wrong tense to save space. In newspapers, space is at a premium, so there are many "mistakes" like these which are really only space-saving devices. Educated speakers know not to write like the papers. |