collecting English subjunctives

american nic   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 03:16 GMT
To me, 1, 5, 6, and 10 all sound fine, but would only be used in situations almost identical to the context used. 2 is an age indicator. 3, 9, and 11 are acceptable, but I wouldn't use them and they sound elitist. 4, 7, and 8 all sound just wrong.
rich7   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 03:16 GMT
"I'm glad I insisted that you brought that 'cello." so should it be "bring" instead of brought.
D   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 03:20 GMT
>I know that it's not correct to say: "if I would have said this, he would have done that".

It's getting less incorrect by the day. The ``subjunctive'' in English is slowly dying, apparently faster in the UK than in the US. It is being replaced by sentences like the one quoted.

Here's a quote from the bartleby.com:

... it should be noted that a survey of the prose of reputable writers over the past 200 years would reveal a persistent tendency to use the indicative was where the traditional rule would require the subjunctive were. A sentence beginning If I was the only boy in the world, while not strictly correct, is wholly unremarkable.
... In spoken English there is a growing tendency to use would have in place of the subjunctive in contrary-to-fact clauses, as in if I would have been the President, but this usage is still widely considered incorrect.
D   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 03:25 GMT
>1. ...<Be> it large or small...
>2. I insist that he <stop>.
>3. I wish I <were> there.

Unremarkable

> 4. That he <dare> say it is egregious enough!
I would put 'That he dare _to_ say it'

>5. Heaven <forbid>.

Normal. I wonder if this could be considered a command rather than a counterfactual statement.

> 6. <Had> I but told her earlier...

I wouldn't use the word 'but' there, although it is certainly correct.

> 7. As difficult as it <be>, it still has to be done.

I would say 'as difficult as it _may_ be' or '_might_ be'

> 8. If it <please> you...

Why does this need subjunctive? You can use the subjunctive to make it sound more polite, but the subjunctive isn't required. Consider:

If he goes to the market, he will spend his money.
If it pleases you, I will sing my song again. That is, if my song pleases you then I will sing it again.

> 9. It's important that he <know> about it.
>10. <May> he find his fame and fortune.
>11. If he <were> more assertive, he'd be more convincing.

Unremarkable.
rich7   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 03:57 GMT
Arguably the "mood" is everywhere without any attendant form"

What does this sentence really mean?

And what exactly "English subjuntive mood is? can you describe it?
D   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 04:10 GMT
> And what exactly "English subjunctive mood is?

That isn't a well-formed sentence, by the way.

There are some constructions in the English language that are called ``subjunctive.'' These have some similarity to, and some significant differences from, the subjunctive moods in other languages, and so these constructions have traditionally been called subjunctive.

The English subjunctive is not inflected, unlike the subjunctive in French or Latin. For the present English subjunctive, you just use the infinitive form of the verb, except with the verb 'to be' which has its own rules.

The best way to learn about the ``subjunctive'' in English is just to learn when to use it. That's what native speakers do.
Gabe   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 05:26 GMT
>>"if I would have said this, he would have done that"<<

That doesn't sound that incorrect to me. If I were (is that the subjunctive there?) to say it aloud, though, it would sound more like "If I woulda said this, he woulda done that." But I could just as easily see me saying "If only I had done this, he wouldn't have done that." (Or "he wouldn'ta done that" in terms of pronunciation)

I'm probably only confusing things, sorry. I'm just saying what I as a native speaker would say. Take from it what you will in terms of grammar and whatnot.
Kirk   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 06:18 GMT
In the spoken language "if he would've____, then he would've____" is a viable alternative to "if he had________, then he would've________." Formal written English still prefers the latter, and at least here I believe I hear the second form more often in conversation, but the former is also pretty common.
Lazar   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 06:50 GMT
One archaic use of the subjunctive is "Would that...", indicating a desire or wish. For example, "Would that I could go there with you." I love to use old-fashioned idioms like that.
DJW   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 08:44 GMT
The subjunctive is dying out in England, but to say "if I would have done this, he would have done that" is still considered very bad. Most speakers still say if I had.... The subjunctive is definitely dying out in most of the examples raised by the original poster but "if I was you" also sounds very common.
Todd   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:04 GMT
I'm sure there must be more interesting examples than what I listed above. It's not just about what is usable today, it's also about just being able to recognize it when it comes up, be it outdated or not.

Lazar gives us:
12. "would that I...".
And Marx via DWG:
13. "If he have a hobby..."
How about this one:
14. "tell him to come along if he like."

It's typical to see this contrast between people like Lazar, who says "I love to use old-fashioned idioms like that," with people like AmericanNic who writes several of them off as "elitist". I'm not quite sure what that is, particularly in reference to, say, Marx, or even Dickens. Well, it's certainly not "street".

Since I myself tend to see a language as a cabinet of curiosities anyway, I like to use the subjunctive when I can, but some folks are pretty sensitive to perceived pretention, or elitism. It's true nevertheless that consciously putting a form like this on exhibit is like seeing it as a relic in a bell jar, which shows us to what degree it's become an endangered species.

Here's a question for a real grammar freak: In the phrase "If he still loved her tomorrow...", what form is the verb taking? It sounds subjunctive in mood in a way, but it's still not the same as "If he love her..." which is a true subjunctive. Or correct me.
Ved   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 15:58 GMT
"If he still loved her tomorrow..." would be what survives of the Old English preterite subjunctive "lufode" (f=v), which, incidentally was at that time already isomorphous with the indicative for this class of verbs.
Todd   Wednesday, March 23, 2005, 16:10 GMT
Could you expand on that Ved? I can't even remember what preterite is. Are you saying that it is a form of the subjunctive?
Waldemar   Thursday, March 24, 2005, 00:58 GMT
is

Everybody move their body! subjunctive?
D   Thursday, March 24, 2005, 01:17 GMT
> Everybody move their body!

That looks like a command to me, not subjunctive. The choice of `their' might raise some eyebrows but is fine in normal AE speech.