Catalan language in danger?

JGreco   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 18:58 GMT
Sorry, Arnau for mis-spelling yor name.
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 19:15 GMT
Over 90% of the Spanish-speaking population has been leaving in Catalonia for over 30 years and arrived in the 1950-70 period for economic reasons, especially from other Spanish regions, at that time. The second generation often adopts Catalan as the home language and marriages amongst the two linguistic communities have happened all the time. Very often, in those cases, Catalan becomes the home language, something many Castilian-speakers from the rest of Spain just can't seem to cope with. They say 50% of the population speaks Spanish and that isn't true since 100% of the population can speak Castilian although Catalan is already the language of over 60% of the homes (all over Catalonia) and growing. Nevertheless, the strength of Castilian Spanish media and culture is very strong.

That is a real fact and not rightist Spanish propaganda or even Spanish Nationalist propaganda. Many of the "older" immigrants in Catalonia speak fluent Spanish and all their children have been born in Catalonia and speak fluent Catalan and are Catalans themselves and have never been anything else.

According to the official census over 80% of the population of Catalonia can speak Catalan. Since the census is filled by people in their homes (as happens all over Spain) there is no way you can say that has been done by somebody else.

Most declarations are from people living outside of Catalonia since Catalonia is an extremely peaceful nation within Spain. Central and South Americans living in Catalonia are very well received as as Arabs and people from many countries. Many of them learn Catalan although Spanish (or others) is their main language.

In the past few years Catalonia is receiving more and more people from all over the world and nobody is leaving. Quite on the contrary! Population has passed from 6 to 7 million in just a few years and that wouldn't be the case if Catalonia wasn't a welcoming land.
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 19:18 GMT
have been living (not leaving)
Arnau is Arnaldo in Spanish and Arnold in English. I wonder why anybody against the Catalonian language would choose a Catalan name...
Deborah   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 19:34 GMT
Lazar,

<< Actually it means "Out of many, one". >>

Oops! (blushing) Thanks for catching that. I really do know what it means -- it's just that sometimes I type my words in the order wrong.
greg   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 20:04 GMT
Jordi : gràcies per la tea/tua ayuta (?).
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 22:56 GMT
Greg:
It's "gràcies pel teu ajut. " (teu/teva/teves and "ajut" is masculine)
greg   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 23:08 GMT
Instinctively I was to write *<ajuta>, but then I thought, wait, there can't be any <j> in Catalan. How do you pronounce <j> ? (This will be my last question)
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 23:23 GMT
Greg:
<j> is pronounced exactly the same way as in Occitan and French in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands (like Jean) whilst it's pronounced in the Valencian Country like "John" in English.
The Castilian Spanish <j> (like in German "achtung") is not pronounced in Catalan and sounds quite alien to us.
Jacobo   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 01:38 GMT
Jordi, do you know when the <j> changed in Castilian?
It has to be sometime after 1492, because in Judaeo-Spanish it is pronounced similarly to French and Catalan.
Gui   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 07:29 GMT
Jordi,
the 'j' (and 'g' before 'e' and 'i') in Occitan is pronounced like the 'j' in English 'John', at least that's the pronunciation the IEO suggests and what I hear amongst Occitan speakers around Toulouse. In Bas-Languedoc, around Montpellier, however it is pronounced close to 'ch' in English 'chair' and in Provençal it sounds more like the 'ts' in 'cats'.

The 'j' as in French "Jean" is probably the French accent amongst recent Occitan learners or it could be a northern variety of Occitan.
greg   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 08:07 GMT
Jacobo : I read that the Spanish jota 'appeared' in 17th century (so it's not Arab). Is it true ?
Jordi   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 08:48 GMT
Gui:
That's quite understandable since the General Valencian "j" in Catalan is the most archaic and sounds exactly like English"John", whilst it has evolved in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands to sound like contemporary French "Jean". Do you know if "j" has always been pronounced the same in northern French dialects?

In the dialect of the city of Valencia it sounds like "Ch" (Chuan) due to contact with the many Aragonese Spanish settlers in the 16th century. Since you say it also happens in Montpelier that is quite remarkable.

Since the Catalan "j" is like French without any historic contact with French at all it can be explained as an internal evolution (affricative) and we would have to see if that "j" doesn't also happens in other Occitan dialects (perhaps the north?)

Yes, although I don't have the time to check all that I clearly remember studying that the Castilian "j" evolved quite lately, the same as the interdental "c" (as in "think"), since it was previously pronounced either as "s" or "ts".

Gui, are you a native Occitan language speaker? Where are you from? I learnt Occitan in Provence and I've often been to Toulouse. There's no way we can convince French people on this board that there are Occitan territories where Occitan is still quite common? I've often spoken Occitan in Occitania, maybe I'm just a lucky guy!
Jacobo   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 09:01 GMT
Greg, I believe you are correct. I think ceceo for c and z appeared during this time too.
greg   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 09:04 GMT
Jordi : Ca <ajut> is masculine ?
greg   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 09:07 GMT
Very last question, Jordi : how would you translate Fr <ajout> = En <addition> in Catalan ?