Catalan language in danger?

Ack, that should be "were I a moderator" and "I would have a star by my name" above. I should read my posts more carefully before I most them.

I mean, "before I post them"; that illustrates that point perfectly well...

Jordi : "Catalan is the language of the home for more than half the population and growing. Spanish is also very strong, specially in the main cities and is a major threat to Catalan although Catalan culture is very strong".

Why is Spanish a threat to Catalan ? I had the impression that Catalan was doing remarkably well in Catalogne.

Why is English a threat to French? I thought French was doing remarkably well and yet the French feel obliged to legislate, even in France. Why is English a threat to French in Quebec? etc. etc.

Spanish is a threat to Catalan because it is the official state language of Spain and a world language whilst Catalan is a co-official language in its own territory and does not have a state of its own. Only the courage of the Catalan people has kept the language alive as the most important language of Europe without a state in the early 21st century. It's a long story and I'm sure you'll understand it. The Catalans are often expected to speak Spanish to newcomers whilst many newcomers feel they don't have to take the trouble. Catalans who carry on in their own language are often misunderstood whilst it is considered the most natural thing in the world to carry on in French in Paris or Castilian in Madrid.

Lots of Europeans (like the French student who expects the university professor to switch to Spanish for his sake since he only learnt Spanish at school) still don't know that Catalan isn't a minority language and some Castilian-speaking Spaniards are still convinced we are born genetically bilingual. That theory was quite popular some time back and only affects "regional" languages as if the regionals were paradoxally brighter than the rest.

I would say Catalan is doing well bearing in mind all these factors but I'd never say it's doing remarkably well. That's quite difficult unless you have a state to back you up. We've only got a strong "regional"government that can change hands every four years although it has been more or less "Catalan nationalist" in the past 25 years and the language is considered to be the most important factor of cultural cohesion amongst the Catalan-speaking community.

It's not an easy issue but I still wanted to say a few things.

I studied for a year in barcelona and I can testify catalan was very widely used: all my lectures were in catalan. Outside the classroom spanish was more widespread but definitely catalan is everywhere (for example I think catalan tv has the highest audience, and not without reason since it was easily the best of all available)

Still I think the debate around catalan spain is unfairly mixed with politics. I think the 2 languages are so close that the knowledge of the second doesnt really take up any brain-space so to speak. I didnt get to speak it but I understood and even wrote in it in the space of 9 months, no formal instruction needed

On the other hand a negative impression I got from my stay in barcelona was the political use of catalan as a justification of a special status of catalan ppl within spain. Since I moved to london I came to realise just how similar barcelona and madrid are in so many senses, and for me is undeniable that catalans are just as spanish as anyone else in spain, although this is probably less strong concept as being french or english. Of course this is a subjective opinion, but I believe its not more widely held in catalonia (and spain) simply because ppl have traditionally travel very little outside spain.

My impression is that the political charge associated to catalan is detrimental to the popularity of the language among spanish speakers. To use a familiar example, the special status generates a rejection similar to the one most ppl in the EU (im sure catalans included) feel about the UK when they hear their constant rumblings against the EU: why cant they simply accomodate? Its possibly unfair, but very understandable nontheless.

One consequence I see from this is barcelona giving up on its traditional role of second capital of spain in order to concentrate on their own region. I see it as a decision that involves trade-offs: the strong promotion of catalan in the last 2 decades has allowed native catalan speakers to use their language in all aspects of everyday life in their country, which has to be good. But at the same time emphasizing on the difference has generated mistrust in the rest of spain, which is still the most important neighbourhood for catalan economy and culture. I wonder if now the emphasis shouldnt be in a more laissez-faire from public institutions, that allowed the calan - spanish dichotomy to go back to a more private level

Jordi:

"Why is English a threat to French in Quebec?"

Well, the answer you get to this question will really depend on who you speak to.

In general terms though, it's because English is so pervasive in North America that it is constantly "in the face" of French speakers. There is always the "temptation" to move west into "English Canada" or south to the US in search of economic opportunity.

A hardline Québec separatist might well imply a determined English Canadian attempt to assimilate French Canadians. But this is simplistic. Indeed, if there were such a conspiracy, it would surely rank as a complete flop. In the 18th Century, when what is now Québec/French Canada fell to the British, there were some 60,000 French speaking colonists. Today there are over six million French speakers - more than a 100 times as many - not a particularly effective programme of assimilation in my view.

These days, what's pushing the percentage of French speakers down in Canada (and North America as a whole) is their declining birthrate and the fact that immigrants want to learn English rather than French.

Xulo is right, I always unavoidably associate Català with esquerra republicana and Ciu and their sentiment anti-spanish.

Since XuloChávez is a Galician-Portuguese and Castilian Spanish bilingual speaker it is hardly surprising he could pick up Catalan (another Romance language) so easily. As he says many Spanish-speaking people get to understand the language quite well but never fully speak it. Catalan is as near to Spanish as it is to Occitan and French in so many ways. Yet it has a flavour of its own, which makes it quite different as anybody who has heard Catalan knows.

A language that is the majority historic language in a given territory obviously pretends to be "the language" of that area. If you speak Spanish to everybody many Catalans will answer in Spanish (not all) and you'll obviously have the feeling that much more Spanish is usually spoken around the place than what is really the case.

Since I'm a native Catalan speaker who has been living in Barcelona for many many years and since I always speak Catalan first I can assure you that I have the feeling that Catalan is really widespread around me. 8 out of every 10 people I speak Catalan to (not only friends but everyday needs) answer in Catalan. If I were to speak in Spanish to them over half would answer in Spanish since a lot of code-switching goes on, especially in Barcelona.

The important thing is to keep up the popularity of Catalan amongst native speakers. These include many first generation Catalan-speakers born in Catalonia of Spanish-speaking parents. Many of them speak Catalan to their children at home. I also know people who have been living here for a few years and they also speak beautiful foreign accented Catalan.

Regarding politics the only thing most Catalans want is to be Catalan. If to be Catalan is a noble, fair way to be Spanish I imagine most would agree. The problem is we get a lot of interference from Spanish nationalistic politics. That is a fact. I will repeat we are not the only nationalists around the peninsula. Others have been doing just that for a few centuries or more. After all, we never invaded other parts of Spain and obliged them to speak our language (except for the Moors but we all did that in our great Catholic days.)
Barcelona does not only have a role as the second city in Spain (intellectually it has been the first for a very long time whilst speaking and writing in Catalan). Barcelona has to be a major European and world city, a city proud of its culture and opened to the world. Nowhere in Spain will you find as many young and more mature people speaking several European languages. Over 50% of interpreters of Spanish in the European Union were born in the Catalan-speaking territory. There must be something to that and one hears as much Catalan as Spanish in some corridors in Brussels or Strasbourg. If you want to meet Spanish monoglots another half of Spain is the place to go to.

Catalonia was a part of Karl the Great Empire (Charlemagne) and has always been a deeply European city since the early Middle Ages.

Catalonia was not a part of Karl the Great Empire. Only a little part of Catalonia, Aragon and Navarra was part of karl the Great Empire. It was called Marca Hispanica and not Catalonia.

Link
http://www.pais-global.com.ar/mapas/mapa21.htm

In the map you send us Barcelona is clearly within the "Marca Hispànica" meaning the Hispanic Border (March) and the county of Barcelona (comtat de Barcelona) has a clear European medieval origin. "Hispania" is the name the Romans gave all the Iberian peninsula, including the present states of Portugal, Andorra, Gibraltar and Spain. Catalonia grew to the south after that. Neither Pamplona (capital city of Navarre) or Zaragoza (capital city of Aragon) were a part of the Hispanic March, whilst the capital city of Catalonia always was. Check your history please because I know mine very well.

The Castilians Kings have always pretend to usurp the Roman name of Hispania (actual evolution: Spain) and they have also tried to give the name of their language "Castilian" to the whole and that is why it is now known as "español" when all the Spanish historic dictionaries speak of "diccionario de la lengua castellana" and "castellano" is the way most Spaniards call the original language of Castille.

Now who is trying to assimilate who and does that explain a few things? Spain is bound to be a federal state if you want to keep the historic nations indoor. I have no problems with that. Do you?

A lot of blood is spilled in every inch of frontier in Europe and a lot of blood will be spilled if any part of Spain want to leave. Remember Yugoslavia.
Democracy in Spain is very young and there is a long history of civil wars.

O.K then and I agree. Let us respect each other and build a bright new future where a language or a people aren't above the rest.

Amen to that.

Jordi : thanx for this bright explanation I'll keep in mind.