The rhotic "R" in England

Damian   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 14:31 GMT
**Well, that's settled!**

Well, DEBORAH....acording to Mrs Mills it is....but that's her style as you can see. The very name of the Supplement you read from is called Style.

Actually, the name SCONE is Scottish in that it is the name of a small village in Perthshire, Central Scotland. It is pronounced quite differently: ['Sk-Un] ...the vowel sound being the Scottish one almost the same as the "U" sound in the French "du" or "mur". Scone was actually the former site of the old Pictish capital and the stone on which medieval Scottish kings were crowned (the Stone of Scone pron. ['Sk-Un]!) was situated in Scone.

The Stone of Scone was "stolen" from its rightful place by the pillaging English King Edward I in 1296 and removed to Westminster Abbey, in London. It is still there to be seen, but many Scots still think it should be back in Scone. On Christmas Day 1950 it was somehow removed (stolen back!) from the Abbey by Scottish patriots and returned to Scone Palace, but of course it was eventually returned to its exiled place in Westminster Abbey.

I think ADAM should do something about this!...like demanding of Tony Blair that the Stone of Scone be restored to its rightful place back in Scotland and not languish in an English Abbey to be gawped at by millions of tourists in a "foreign land"!
Jaro   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 15:04 GMT
I thought scone is pronounced /skon/ isn't it? I mean the cake.
Deborah   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 15:19 GMT
DAMIAN, does stone rhyme with scone?
Bob   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 15:55 GMT
I believe for Scots and Americans, scone rhymes with stone. But in England, it's /skon/ with a short vowel as Jaro writes.
Deborah   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 16:01 GMT
DAMIAN, in Scotland, does stone rhyme with scone as you described it, i.e., with a vowel that sounds almost like the French U?
Damian   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 16:05 GMT
Bob is right DEBORAH......we say scone to rhyme with stone. As far as I could tell down in England people seem to say either, but mostly "scon" in the North and "scone" in the South...or is it the other way round? Heck I cannae remember. Mostly "skon" as BOB and JARO say. Whatever, they're nice with cream and strawberry jam, "skon" or "skone", and they all end up in the same place.
Erotic R UK   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 21:06 GMT
Kazoo   Monday, April 25, 2005, 05:42 GMT
Damian,

Thanks for that link, it was very interesting to listen too. It is difficult to catch some of it, but I think I caught a majority of it. Very interesting to notice that the way the man on the clip pronounces his 'r' is almost identical to the North American pronunciation. It's not rolled or trilled, but still very noticeable.

Deborah mentioned that some of the man's speech reminded her or her Grandfather's speech. I also noticed some similarities with how the man in the recording spoke and how my Grandfather speaks. My Grandfather is about 25 years younger than Deborah's, but we come from an area with a unique accent. People from other areas in Canada are usually able to tell that someone is from the general area I live in after hearing us speak.

Anyway, thanks again, very interesting.
Kazoo   Monday, April 25, 2005, 05:46 GMT
By the way, are there many 'rhotic' English dialects?
Georgina   Monday, April 25, 2005, 09:43 GMT
Neither intrusive R nor ultimate R should be pronounced. When R exists within a word, pronounce it; if not, be aware it exists merely as a guide to the vowel to be used in the syllable.
Damian   Monday, April 25, 2005, 18:47 GMT
**DAMIAN, in Scotland, does stone rhyme with scone as you described it, i.e., with a vowel that sounds almost like the French U?**

Yes DEBORAH...they do rhyme, more or less, but not the same as the French U...almost the same as the English but not so much of a diphthong, and shorter. Just to complicate matters a wee bit, it's only in the name of the place SCONE that the French U sound occurs.
Deborah   Monday, April 25, 2005, 21:36 GMT
Damian, thanks for the clarification (which I'll forget before I ever get to Scotland, I'm sure).

Kazoo, not that it matters, but I was talking about my grandmother's speech patterns. Oddly enough, my grandfather (b. 1893), who spent his early childhood in rural Alabama and his later childhood in small-town west Texas, spoke pretty standard English with barely a trace of an accent. But he ran away from home in his early teens and traveled around quite a bit, which may account for it.