Romance Languages

Travis   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 10:36 GMT
JJM, what is meant here is that the particular dialect of Vulgar Latin which was used preserved roots which were "standard" in Classical Latin, yet were lost in most other dialects of Vulgar Latin, from which the other Romance languages are descended. It does not mean that Romanian is directly descended from Classical Latin, of course, but rather than Romanian is descended from particularly conservative dialects of Vulgar Latin, which were closer to the classical literary variety than most dialects of Vulgar Latin.
greg   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 10:56 GMT
Inteleg, Romanian ! But I'm stubborn too ! I tend to agree with JJM as I think it was Roman soldiers and Latinophone merchants (from Italy, Greece or Levant) settling in newly conquered Roman provinces that shaped the future Romance languages most - at least initially.

Don't get me wrong : I inteleg what Brennus and you meant. I just need to understand why Classical Latin, not Vulgar Latin, prevailed in Dacia.

Romanian : "Romanian was never influenced by Italian or other Romance languages except some French loan words deliberately transmuted into Romanian in the 19th century".
I read somewhere that Romanian lexicon has 40 % French loanwords. Do you infirm or confirm ?

An interesting view at : http://www.roumanie-france.ro/index.php/node/display/213 (bilingual Romanian/French).
Romanian   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 10:59 GMT
JJM … I use the term “Classical Latin” as in Ancient Latin -with a more complex grammar structure…not necessarily a POSH Latin “essentially literary standard of Latin”

Besides I have studied Classical Latin in school and all my professors used the term “Classical Latin” for debating the origins of words vs. Vulgar Latin (Late Latin)


Archaic Latin - Pre Classical Latin
Classical Latin - Latin in the Ancient World
Vulgar Latin - Late Latin
Medieval Latin - Present-day Latin
Romanian   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 11:22 GMT

Greg! 40% it’s almost half! No! that is absurd…French loan words only 6% .But I wish we had more French loan words than Slavic :-)
Travis   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 11:27 GMT
I myself would probably go for Italian in this case, simply due to its being significantly closer to Romanian overall than French. If anything French seems like it would be a rather arbitrary choice, in this case, based purely on the prestige of the language at the time more than anything else.
greg   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 12:31 GMT
Travis : I don't understand what you mean.
Brennus   Tuesday, April 26, 2005, 21:38 GMT

Re: All Romance languages stem from some form of Vulgar Latin.

A word of caution here.

They have a basis in Vulgar Latin (Low Latin, Popular Latin etc.) but not all of their lexicon or grammar comes from Vulgar Latin. For example, the suffix -issimo as in Italian pianissimo or Spanish felicissimo, generalisimo etc. is the result of a "learned" influence and was not in Vulgar Latin. The words for "victory" in the modern Romance languages are the result of a "learned " influence too (although "victory" is not the only word): Sp. victoria; Port. vitória Fr. victoire, Rom. victorie, Italian vittoria. Classical Latin -ct- changed to ch in Spanish, pt in Romanian. Had they come directly from Vulgar Latin the normal development in Spanish and Romanian would have been * vechoría and *viptãrie.
JGreco   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 07:32 GMT
>>Brennus<<

Shouldn't "Felicissimo" read "Felicisimo" in Spanish. Double letters other than "ll" do not exist in Spanish unless it is a loan word. By the way I think Spanish, Portuguese, than French have least evolved from Latin.
Anyways, that is my opinion.
Brennus   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 08:02 GMT
J, Greco,

Hello.

-isimo in Spanish -issimo in Italian, I guess, but my point is that this is a learned feature in these two languages introduced by scholars and clergy and not something inherited from the Vulgar Latin speech of Romaan Italy or Spain.
Remus   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 08:17 GMT
"Which Romance language has evolved the most from Classical and Vulgar Latin? Which has evolved the least?"

Most: English, obviously, via Latin and French. Yes, yes, OE wasn't a "romance" language, as defined by some. Trot out your definitions.

Least: Romansch, even more obviously, as it is Latin.
JJM   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 09:10 GMT
English is NOT a Romance language.

It's just that simple.
Remus you're an idiot   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 18:05 GMT
Remus you're an idiot!

Join aol or yahoo and spare us !
Kess   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 19:37 GMT
Which Romance language has evolved the most from Classical and Vulgar Latin?


(Spoken) Brazilian Portuguese

although it has some Latin-based features like the usage of the preposition EM (meaning IN) with the verbs of movement- IN URBEM IRE /Latin/ IR NA CIDADE /spoken brazilian portuguese/
Kess   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 19:48 GMT
CONTINENTAL PORTUGUESE
Nos Estados Unidos um homem esteve 28 anos internado em manicómios vários, ou, falando mais bonito, em diversos hospitais psiquiátricos. No primeiro desses manicómios, onde deu entrada em 1951, o homem em questão foi declarado atrasado mental, visto que nem sequer sabia falar, limitando-se a produzir uns estranhos sons que nada tinham a ver com a linguagem humana. Ao longo dos anos e dos hospitais para onde ia sendo transferido, os médicos foram-no declarando "extremamente pouco comunicativo", "extremamente atrasado", "individuo de linguagem incoerente e despropositada".

SPOKEN BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE:
Nos Estados Unidos, um homem esteve internado em vários HOSPÍCIOS ou, falando mais bonito, em diversos hospitais psiquiátricos, POR 28 anos. No primeiro desses HOSPÍCIOS, onde ELE deu entrada em 1951, ELE foi declarado atrasado mental, visto que ELE nem sequer sabia falar, SE limitando a produzir uns sons estranhos que NÃO tinham NADA a ver com a linguagem humana. Ao longo dos anos e dos hospitais para onde ELE estava transferido, os médicos IAM declarando ELE "extremamente pouco comunicativo", "extremamente atrasado", "individuo de linguagem incoerente e despropositada".
LOL   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 20:33 GMT
Kess you must be dreaming in BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE :)

Wake up ! Portuguese is not the closest to Latin by far !

Try some Sardinian, Italian or Romanian

and come back again :)