Accent evolution in English

andre in usa   Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 08:46 GMT
The poor sound quality was something that occured to me as well.

"Were Jackie Gleason and Co deliberately eliminating any rhotic tendencies (remembering the era and that the programme was unlikely to be seen outside NA as TV was rare elsewhere), and were David Janssen et al trying similarly to remove theirs, or did their speech reflect that of the average American at the time?"

I have never actually seen "The Jackie Gleason Show" but I've seen "The Honeymooners." Jackie Gleason is from NYC, so he his accent is naturally non-rhotic. Non-rhoticism in NYC is a working class trait, not prestigious in the least.
Algy   Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 09:28 GMT
"Non-rhoticism in NYC is a working class trait, not prestigious in the least."

Perhaps not to you, so it will surprise you to learn that rhoticism is considered not just non-prestigious but extremely ignorant by many.
andre in usa   Wednesday, April 27, 2005, 09:40 GMT
"Perhaps not to you, so it will surprise you to learn that rhoticism is considered not just non-prestigious but extremely ignorant by many."

I am well aware that rhoticism is considered non-prestigious by many (e.g. in England) but in New York City it is reversed. I wasn't offering my personal opinion when I typed that about the NYC accent, I was writing about what the general consensus is in NYC regarding rhoticism.
Mxsmanic   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 05:37 GMT
For many years, the tendency in the U.S. has been towards rhotic English in those areas that were non-rhotic previously. General American English has always been rhotic, anyway. Non-rhotic English creates an impression of stupidity or low socioeconomic status. Since rhotic pronunciation is more phonetic than non-rhotic pronunciation, I consider the continuing expansion of rhotic pronunciation to be a good thing.
Gui   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 06:39 GMT
I watched a movie recently called "Rear Window" with the very beautiful Grace Kelly and she sounded some what British (non-rhotic accent). I know that she was an American, but was she from the East Coast or perhaps she was educated in England? Is she an example of the standard American English of her time? Her accent was very different from the other woman in the film (I don't know her name) whose accent was rhotic and sounded nasal.
Jordi   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 07:00 GMT
Wasn't Grace Kelly from Boston and spoke upper class Bostonian English?
mjd   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 07:13 GMT
I find the notion that Algy brought up amusing. I can see how some accent characteristics might be deemed less prestigious, but to be labeled "ignorant" because of one's accent. Ignorant of what exactly?...What some think is "correct" pronunciation?
andre in usa   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 09:18 GMT
Gui and Jordi,

Grace Kelly was born and raised in Philadelphia and attended private schools within the city. Her father was a self-made millionaire and they were (and still are) a prominent family in the city. She, being a young woman of the upper-class in the 1940's, probably had the affected, non-rhotic accent of that period.

mjd,

Yeah, I didn't get the "ignorant" thing either. I guess that means I'm ignorant. :P
Fred   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 10:25 GMT
"Non-rhotic English creates an impression of stupidity or low socioeconomic status."

That's interesting. In the rest of the world, rhotic American English creates an impression of stupidity.
Ben   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 15:54 GMT
"Non-rhoticism in NYC is a working class trait, not prestigious in the least."

That's true NOW, but was the opposite 75 years ago. The tide turned after WWII, when midwestern famboys who just got out of the military started participating in the business economy and became the dominant class.
Mxsmanic   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 20:05 GMT
A large part of the English-speaking world is trying to learn American English, so they obviously don't all think it sounds stupid.

Also, American English is somewhat easier to learn, in that there's a well-defined General American English spoken by 300 million native speakers. The same cannot be said for British English, which changes every 5 km; and the most frequently taught British pronunciation, Received Pronunciation, is spoken by almost no one at all as a native language.
Barbara   Thursday, April 28, 2005, 22:09 GMT
I read this fascinating biography on Grace Kelly some time ago that mentioned how her family, despite their wealth, never gained acceptance into the upper echelons of Philadelphia high society because they were Irish Catholics – "working-class people" in the eyes of the East Coast WASP culture. This irked her father, Jack, to no end who was a very popular, larger-than-life personality in the local scene. But he had the last laugh when Grace became Princess of Monaco. Today the most scenic street in Philadelphia is named after the Kelly family, and a statue of Jack Kelly sits in Fairmount Park.

But anyway, I remember the bio calling Grace's way of speaking a "finishing school" accent that made her seem artificial and too mannered.
Fred   Friday, April 29, 2005, 01:28 GMT
"A large part of the English-speaking world is trying to learn American English, so they obviously don't all think it sounds stupid."

Retaining their old accents would have a lot to do with that. But overall, it is an impression.
CB in Southern US   Friday, April 29, 2005, 02:14 GMT
Jordi,

To answer your question to people over 50, I am a southerner and though I, along with others of my generation, still have a distinct southern accent, it is much different from my parents' and grandparents'. Though there are still some hard southern accents around, the vast majority sound a lot different due to our exposure to mass media, etc. For example, my parents have the kind of southern accent where no r's are pronounced unless they are at the beginning of a word. Most of my generation might have a few words where r's are not clearly pronounced but most of the are. Some words that give us away are words like "eight" or "gate" which we pronounce sort of like "gi-eet". Bill Clinton is a good example of the baby boomer southern accent. Something interesting happened to me recently while in Kansas. A lady asked my buddy and I if we were Australians. I asked her if she thought that because of our funny accents and she said yes, that and your hats. Anyway, I've noticed that some words like "eight" and "gate" are pronounced here in a similar way that Australians do.
In our small southern towns, the kids still have a strong southern accent but in the larger cities, they are starting to blend in with the rest of the country with almost no southern accent except for a few words here and there. So, I think even though the different southern accents will be with us for a while, they will continue to be watered down.
american nic   Friday, April 29, 2005, 04:02 GMT
And how do you feel about that?