French and Haitian Creole

I've always wondered if native speakers of bth languages understand each other easily. Are the differences between the two languages very big?

Ed,

There is an Oxford Picture Dictionary Of Haitian French out that gives a good overview of the language if you can find it. I don't know if it is out of print or not.

About 10 years ago there were riots in Haiti just before Jean-Bertrand Aristide came to power there (Now he's gone too!). During that time , I saw a report about them on France TV and there was a pretty, blondish French female journalist interviewing an unhappy Haitian blackman about the riots. They didn't seem to have any difficulty understanding each other at all, so I think that the two forms of French are still mutually intelligible for the most part.

Hatians use the word 'kob' for "money" instead of "argent" but I read that 'cobe' (or 'coube'? maybe Greg knows) was a slang word for "money" even in Standard French so differences in vocabulary don't necessarily create comprehension problems.

<<I think that the two forms of French are still mutually intelligible for the most part.>>

I don't think that's correct. French speakers would have a difficult time understanding a Kreyol speaker, except for maybe a few basic words and phrases like "bonjou", "bonswa", "wi" (oui), "non", and "mesi" (merci), and vice versa, unless the Kreyol speaker belonged to the educated upper class and would have studied French.

The differences between French and Kreyol are huge. For example, unlike French, Kreyol has no gender markers, no number markers, and no plural "s"; definite and indefinite articles are placed after the noun; a single pronoun form is used for subject, object, and possessives; there is no subject-verb agreement, and verb tenses are indicated by a system of markers or particles placed before the verb ("te" for past, "ap" for progressive, and "pral(e)" for future).

Here's a sample French text and beneath it is the Kreyol version:

"Chacun peut se prévaloir de tous les droits et de toutes les libertés proclamés dans la présente Déclaration, sans distinction aucune, notamment de race, de couleur, de sexe, de langue, de religion, d’opinion politique ou de toute autre opinion, d’origine nationale ou sociale, de fortune, de naissance ou de toute autre situation. De plus, il ne sera fait aucune distinction fondée sur le statut politique, jurdique ou international du pays ou du territoire dont une personne est ressortissante, que ce pays ou territoire soit indépendant, sous tutelle, non autonome ou soumis à une limitation quelconque de souveraineté."

"Chak grenn moun sou tè a fèt pou kapab benefisye libète ak dwa ki pwoklame nan Deklarasyon sila a, san okenn diferans, tankou diferans ki baze sou ras, sou koulè po, sou si se fanm oswa si se gason. Pa fèt pou gen okenn diferans ki baze ni sou lang, ni sou relijyon, ni sou opinyon politik oswa lòt fason sèten moun panse, ni pa dwe gen diferans ki baze sou nasyonalite moun, klas sosyal yo, richès yo, nan ki kondisyon paran yo te fè yo, ni sou okenn lòt resonman nan jan sa a. Pa fèt pou gen okenn diferans non plis, ki gen rapò ni ak sitiasyon politik, ni ak kalite rapò relasyon diplomatik ki egziste ant peyi kote moun nan ye a ak peyi kote moun nan sòti a, kit se yon peyi oswa yon tèritwa endepandan, kit li anba drapo yon lòt peyi, ki li gran moun lakay li, oswa ta gen kèk règleman ki limite pouvwa peyi sila a pou li pran desizyon poukont li."

Here's an interesting article discussing the problems Haitian Creole speakers are facing in their own country.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/haiti/creole.htm

Charles,

The orthographies are different but I think that the actual languages are probably more alike than first meets the eye. I can honestly say that I have never heard a Black speaker of English that I couldn't understand despite occasional differences in syntax, vocabulary, even pronunciation.

For example, when a person goes back on a bet a White American English speaker will say "He's welching" and a Black American English speaker will say "He's jammin' " but I still understand what he's saying. What I call a "mosquito hawk" and a "comedian" I hear Blacks calling "a mosquito-killer" and a "cartoon person" ; I say "nail clippers" and "I asked my mother", they say "nail clips" and "I axt my mama" but still no comprehension problems. I think that you are looking at similar phenomena vis-a-vis Standard French and the West Indian Creole forms of French. It would seem that a Parisian still recognizes the Martinique speaker's "Mo malade" as simplifications of his "Moi malade" and "Je suis malade."

What the heck does"welching" mean?

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

<< welch
1857, racing slang, "to refuse or avoid payment of money laid as a bet," probably a disparaging use of the national name Welsh. >>

I first heard the word in the musical "Guys and Dolls."

Tiffany,

Re: Welch, welching, welcher - It means to go back on a bet or a promise you make to someone. Like if I bet you 10 dollars that I can keep my mouth shut for two hours and then don't pay you when I talk after twenty minutes. The word probably comes from "Welsh" because it was once widely assumed in England that this was a Welsh national characteristic.

Tiffany, I only read your post. After reading the previous post, I guess "welching" has another meaning I wasn't aware of.

After reading Brennus's last post, I've come to the conclusion that there is no other meaning of "welching" -- it's "jammin'" that has another meaning!

<< After reading the previous post, I guess "welching" has another meaning I wasn't aware of. >>

Well, I didn't know Brennus was going to post while I was, and he beat me to it. I was referring Brennus's previous previous post...oh, forget it!

The Welsh have often been stereotyped as slippery or thieving, as in the traditional song:

"Taffy was a Welshman
Taffy was a thief
Taffy came to my house
and stole a piece of beef"

Brennus,
Maybe you're right. I've read that the Port-au-Prince Creole dialect is closer to Standard French pronunciation than in other parts of Haiti since the majority of bilingual speakers reside in the capital city. When you keep in mind how some Parisians exaggerate their claims that they cannot comprehend a Marseillais French speaker or a Québècois, then I wonder how they're able to understand a Creole speaker, especially one residing away from Port-au-Prince.

I think it all depends upon mutual exposure and how people adjust to facing an unexpected challenge. I'm sure (judging from TV) I couldn't understand anything if I were to have my very first discussion with a povincial Haïtian. After some time (two hours or two days, don't know) mutual intelligibility would surface, though.

Charles,

Thanks for getting back to me. You , yourself, could still be basically right. I was getting a little carried away there. My statements are actually based on marginal evidence (A television interview, linguistics books & articles and the Oxford Picture Dictionary of Haitian Creole). However, additional evidence, especially testimony from a lot of native French and Haitian Creole speakers, might offset that somewhat. Sorry if I sounded too forceful.

--- Brennus