Do you speak any slavic language?

Jordi   Tuesday, May 10, 2005, 17:29 GMT
Cher Greg:

Obviously, popular northern Catalan has taken most 19th and 20th century concepts sharing them with French whilst Catalan spoken on the Spanish side often shares those concepts with Castilian Spanish. Over 90% of French Catalans cannot write their language because it hasn't been taught in French schools. Nowadays there is quite a movement and several thousand children are learning either at Bressola Primary Schools or Catalan as a subject in quite a few public primary schools. It is a major problem because, as you know, French is the only language of the French according to French laws.

I'll put just an example: In Catalan we say "cotxe" (Castilian "coche" pronounced the same way) whilst popular Northern Catalan will say and pronounce (French spelling) "baitoura" (voiture). Since there is no "v/b" difference in many Catalan dialects and the French and Occitan "ü" doesn't exist they just adopt the French word to their phonetic habits.

To say P.O. Box we say Apartat de Correus in Standard Central Catalan (Spanish: Apartado de Correos) whilst northern popular Catalan will say "Bouata Postala" (Boite Postale).

Northern Catalan has a few traditional Occitanisms (feda for general Catalan "ovella" to say sheep) and also keeps some mediaeval archaic forms which have been forgotten in Central Catalan. Another example. It's "la jubilació" on the Spanish side of Catalan and "la retreta" (la retraite) to say what the English would call "retirement" after your working life.

People with French education will have many more franciscms than peasants with little education or Northern Catalan speakers with a high fluency in Standard or Literary Catalan.

This said, Central Standard Catalan hasn't always taken the same solutions as Castilian (95% of the Catalan-speakers live in Spanish territory). Since the 19th century and during the 20th century many "classical" Catalan words have come back into common use. I'll just put an example.The classical Catalan "bústia" has been adopted again to say a mail box. Older speakers will often say the Castilian "busó" (adaptacion of Castilian "buzón") but everybody under 50 will now say "bústia" again and many of the older speakers are also saying this. Another example would be "gespa" (cesped in Spanish, gazon or pelouse in French, lawn or grass in English). "Gespa" was a mediaeval literary word and almost everybody says it now although it had been long forgotten.

This is why I say that the unity of a language often depends on political factors. Although younger speakers (all over the world) tend to have "a more basic" vocabulary than their grand-parents since agriculture is less and less important they will, on the other hand, have a more pure vocabulary.

For most of the new vocabulary I would say almost everybody depends on English. What I feel is that contemporary European French is borrowing anglicisms in traditional fields. That isn't so much the case in the Iberian peninsula. Nobody here would say "le weekend" and it's absolutely "el cap de setmana" in Catalan and "el fin de semana" in Castilian. Since I speak very Standard Literary French I'm often looked on my other Frenchman. One French scholar was delighted once and he told me: "mais vous parlez du français pur". My French first cousins are convinced I'm some kind of weirdo and they usually tell me "persone (ne)parle comme ça". Why on earth can't I say "le linge" to the clothes I wear inside?

When a linguistic community is divided into two countries or empires they will be very interested in making them believe they have always spoken differently. If that goes on for many generations it usually leads to the the death of these small languages. There can also be a political and geographical interest in keeping those languages as different as possible. Why hasn't English evolved into a different language in South Africa whilst Afrikaans has? An interesting question indeed.
greg   Tuesday, May 10, 2005, 17:50 GMT
I know neither Northern Catalan nor Alsatian, but I suspect the two languages could have borrowed French words in the same fashion (not the same words of course). Probably everyday stuff like <bonjour> (Alsace) or <baitoura> (PO) and perhaps typical French things like <sécu> (social security) or <département> (a subregional administrative division) etc.

What you wrote is fascinating and very instructive (as usual). Thanx for that, Jordi.

To all Slavophones : sorry for this Romance aparté...
Chloe   Tuesday, May 10, 2005, 23:05 GMT
Jordi   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 04:18 GMT
As always dear Chloe (is Chloe a Manchego name?) anything will do to prove that Catalan isn't as important as it should be in its own territory.

Unfortunately for you and other "españolistas castellanistas" like you the official Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua (Valencian Academy of the Language) has acknowledged that Catalan is the name Valencian receives out of the Valencian Community. Furthermore, and for the past 25 years all Valencian schools have only taught the official spelling, which is exactly the same for Valencia, Catalonia and the Balearic Islands and there is one only translation of the European Constitution for the Catalan language. 99 of real Valencian speakers follow the official and philologic school and I should know since my Valencian cousins and I speak the same language, either when I visit my family's Valencian village of they visit Barcelona.

You can also look up the Lengua Murciana and Lengua Andaluza pages (in the Intrernet) where another few idiots would have everybody believe these two Castilian Spanish speaking regions in Spain (Murcia and Andalusia) speak varieties which would be different to Castilian Spanish. It's me who's asking you to enjoy yourself since there is also a page of the Lengua Extremeña (Extremaduran Language) and Asturian and Aragonese, of course, isn't a Spanish dialect since in that case it is a consecutive Latin dialect that Spanish has been trying to absorb for centuries..

Dear Cloíta, I happen to be a Romance language philologist with a degree in English as well. What are you trying to prove?

La verdad es que algunos no tenéis remedio.
Ya sabes, la gente como tu me merece muy poco respecto intelectual.
Jordi   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 04:25 GMT
99%, of course.
or they visit Barcelona
in the Internet

Both Asturian and Aragonese are constitutive Latin dialects whilst Valencian is clearly a consecutive Catalan dialect. Show me only one document from before the Reconquista in Valencia written in something which isn't Catalan and I'll believe.

But, of course, you're the one with the political agenda although you would have everybody else believe I am. I might as well tell you several times I'm as Spanish as you are (and Catalan as well) but you want me to speak "your" Latin dialect and to forget mine. Why don't you worry about your language and culture and forget Catalans since you don't seem to have any interest at all apart from wanting to swallow them in your little world. Don't worry about us, we've always been quite universal without your help.

Adéu siau!
Travis   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 04:26 GMT
I myself strongly agree that Valencian is simply a dialect of Catalan, and trying to say that it is separate from Catalan only acts to erode Catalan's position, and indirectly, its own, by making it just "yet another minority language", and thus less able to compete with Castilian.
Jordi   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 06:37 GMT
Since I'm very much interested in the Slavic situation I expected to use my comments only to see parallelisms,which usually occur in many languages.

I know there is an important audio-visual industry in all the Slavic languages. There are films and TV productions. Nowadays there is satellite TV and TV don't stop at border lines unless there is some kind of geographical barrier.

This said, do audio-visual products travel all through the South Slavic countries? Are they dubbed or are there subtitles? I know that during the 90s (because of the Balcan Wars) communication was very much cut. Is communication coming back? I refer not only to Ex-Yugoslavia but also to neighbouring countries with closely related languages.

I'd be delighted to hear from our Slavic friends what the situation is like.

Obviously, Catalan television (TV 3 and C33) is seen and followed from the upper north (French Catalonia) to the south of the Valencian Country and the Balearic Islands. Catalan TV is now also seen in the Sardinian (Italy) city of l'Alguer where Catalan is spoken and, of course, Andorra.

That has done a lot to make people hear and accept the Standard language and people are interviews in their local varieties and accents.

I know Slavic Languages have a statute as different languages but I imagine Swedish and Danes will perfectly follow Norwegian television. Do you feel that has an influence in the evolution of these languages? I'm specially interested in the Slavic situation.
greg   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 07:47 GMT
I've watched Catalan TV when I was in Spain. I can't say I understood everything. With much concentration, though, I could pick up the general meaning (thanks to image too) and recognise some striking features very close to French (vocabulary principally but also some turns of phrase).
Jordi   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 08:01 GMT
Yes Greg but please let us go back to the Slavic languages.
Ed   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 18:11 GMT
Jordi, there isn't much TV programming exchange between the Slavic countries since the fall of the Communist regime. In Bulgaria, for example, most people have cable which offers not only many Bulgarian channels, but also other major European channels. There are also Russian, Polish and one Serbian channel (PINK which has some music programming) but basically, no one watches those because, well, we don't really understand them that well and if there's enough TV channels in your own language, why would you bother to watch TV in another language? That's how most people are. On the other hand, Bulgarian TV stations don't show Russian movies and stuff, but mostly US movies and Latinamerican telenovelas.
Now with respect to music, things are a little bit different. Many people in Bu;garia listen to some Serbian music, and from what I understand now, Bulgarian artists are becoming more and more popular over there thanks to the Bulgarian music channel Planeta, which is also very popular in FYROM and Bulgarian singers often have concerts there. There is one website where you can buy Bulgarian CDs and you can post your comments, and I see that many people from those ex-Yugoslav countries leave messages there.
Chloe   Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 20:37 GMT
Eh, nazionalsocialista, i didn´t ask your opinion.
Jordi   Thursday, May 12, 2005, 08:37 GMT
Take it easy dear Chloe. I'm from a left wing Catalan, Republican family and I've never tried to impose my language over other people and nations.

That's how fascist propaganda works. After all, why would you send us to a page on Catalan secessionism in a thread that doesn't really worry you at all.
Travis   Thursday, May 12, 2005, 08:45 GMT
Chloe, you're not a whole lot different from that "Afrikanervolkswag" fucker that I just flamed (for their post in which he somehow claimed that their sort'd somehow take back South Africa, and that they'd have andre and Snipsa executed as "traitors" to the Afrikaners).
Travis   Thursday, May 12, 2005, 08:47 GMT
Ack, have to correct that: make that "flamed in another thread" and "in which they somehow".
Chloe   Thursday, May 12, 2005, 09:28 GMT
I wasn´t referring to you, Jordi (I know you are a ultraleftist).
Pero como dicen en mi país: el que se pica ajos come
As the saying goes:if the caps fit, wear it.