simple past or past perfect?

ENG   Saturday, May 21, 2005, 14:49 GMT
Last week I asked:
Ex1: He worked in the field until it rained.
Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained.

1. Which tense is correct?
2. Does the structure mean he still worked or he quitted as it rained?

Opinions are welcome.

From a reader:
>> I would say in the first case he stopped working when it started to rain, in the second he continued to work until AFTER it stopped raining - which doesn't really make sense, so I would say the first sentence is correct. <<

But it seems past perfect is still correct:
Ex: Water Gourd saw it first in the flames from the Bear-god torches, the light moving in odd circles, one torch dipping down until it had extinguished itself in the estuary water.
Ex: "I was seldom able to see an opportunity until it had ceased to be one". Mark Twain quotes (American humorist, writer and lecturer. 1835-1910).
Ex: Like the classic line about the aggrieved partner in a romantic relationship, the smaller donor star gave, and gave, and gave some more until it had nothing left to give,

However, it sounds like simple past is more reasonable, because the action in Until-clause is a 'later' action.

Any more opinion or help?
posts   Saturday, May 21, 2005, 20:16 GMT
Eng,

'Tryingtohelp' responded to this - it's in the archives. I also responded but I noticed that it 'vanished' from your post thread.

<<Ex1: He worked in the field until it rained.>> is used more but both sentences are correct and mean the guy quit when it started to rain.

That is because according to the dictionary 'until' means "Up to a time that" which implies that the guy worked just up to the time it started to rain. The 2nd sentence means the same as Ex1 but the 'had' isn't always used as much.
D   Saturday, May 21, 2005, 20:55 GMT
>> He worked in the field until it had rained. <<

I doubt that a native speaker would use this sentence at all. When I read the sentence, I think that the man worked until the rain stopped, i.e., until it _had rained_. Just like: I wore my old shoes until the soles had worn through.
kasia   Saturday, May 21, 2005, 22:03 GMT
past tense is used to express a "past before past"
that means that had rained happened first (Past Perfect)
and then he worked (simple past)

te one and only role of Past perfect that you must remember is that it is used to set the sequence of events
whenever that order is evident, no need for PastP
eg.
He had read the book before I did.
BEFORE establishes what happened first, so you just say: he read the book before I did.

ah those good old days when one used to be an English teacher;)))))
they are gone and will never come back;))))

good luck with grammar
Eng   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 10:06 GMT
Yes, we agree to the idea of "past of the past", but this is the trouble, because now we cannot explain the example with the past perfect.

As a whole, here everyone agrees to the example with simple past, but not the past perfect. But what about the examples I quoted from the web? They are in the past perfect, so I don't understand.

Are you implying the one by Mark Twain is also wrong?
Adam   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 12:50 GMT
Ex1: He worked in the field until it rained.
Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aren't they exactly the same?
Eng   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 13:55 GMT
The past perfect denotes a 'past-in-the-past' action:
Ex: The waiters cleaned up the tables after the guests had gone.

However, in until-clause, the action is not 'past-in-the-past', so it should be not in the past perfect, as is agreed by many readers here.

But the fact is, the tense is frequent in this structure. Here are two examples from Charles Dickens:
http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/22/

Ex: They held their course at this rate, until they had passed Hyde Park corner, and were on their way to Kensington

Ex: Sikes waited until he had fairly gone; and then, telling Oliver he might look about him if he wanted, once again led him onward on his journey.

So I cannot explain the past perfect here.
D   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 19:15 GMT
>>
Ex1: He worked in the field until it rained.
Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained
Aren't they exactly the same?
<<

The point of my earlier post is that they are not exactly the same. It is possible to read the first one as saying 'he worked until the rain started' and the second as 'he worked until the rain stopped.' This is a very subtle distinction, and it involves the fact that rain takes place over a period of time rather than being intantaneous. When you describe an action that took place over a period of time, the past perfect often refers to the end of the action rather than the beginning.

There are many occasions where you can exchange simple past for past perfect without changing the meaning. In these cases, the simple past is usually preferred in ordinary writing. In literary writing, the choice of tense can change the feeling of the sentence. Examples:

I talked until he fell asleep
I talked until he had fallen asleep
(essentially the same meaning)

When he fell asleep, I stopped talking
When he had fallen asleep, I stopped talking.
(essentially the same meaning)

When I gave my speech, he fell asleep
When I had given my speech, he fell asleep
(different meanings)

He stayed awake until I gave my speech
He stayed awake until I had given my speech
(different meanings)

When I had given my speech, he fell asleep.
He stayed awake until I had given my speech
After I had given my speech, he fell asleep
After I gave my speech, he fell asleep
When my speech was over, he fell asleep
(all have the same meaning)
D   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 19:19 GMT
>>
Ex: They held their course at this rate, until they had passed Hyde Park corner, and were on their way to Kensington

Ex: Sikes waited until he had fairly gone; and then, telling Oliver he might look about him if he wanted, once again led him onward on his journey.
<<

The explanation in my previous post covers both of these. Because 'going fairly' and 'passing Hyde park' take place over a period of time, the past perfect is used to mark the end of the action. This is more common in literary usage, which is what I think these examples are.
Eng   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 20:12 GMT
Ex1: He worked in the field until it rained.
Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained
Aren't they exactly the same?

>> The point of my earlier post is that they are not exactly the same. It is possible to read the first one as saying 'he worked until the rain started' and the second as 'he worked until the rain stopped.' <<

I don't believe the second example means 'he worked until the rain stopped.' It twists too much. Actually, the stoppage is implied in the working, not the raining.
Deborah   Sunday, May 22, 2005, 20:23 GMT
I agree with D. The meaning of the second sentence could only be that he worked in the field until it (had) stopped raining.
ComeOn   Monday, May 23, 2005, 07:42 GMT
Where is the logic? The rain helps the work? It stops, the work is over?
kasia   Monday, May 23, 2005, 09:09 GMT
>But it seems past perfect is still correct:
Ex: Water Gourd saw it first in the flames from the Bear-god torches, the light moving in odd circles, one torch dipping down until it had extinguished itself in the estuary water.

my guess would be:
"the torch will be dipping down until it will have extinguished itself"
the perfect tense above suggests COMPLETION, maybe that was the idea of teh author if that text? if you consider: "youre not going out until you HAVE READ your book" - until you have finished/ completed.
maybe that was the idea? the sentence comes from a Sue Harrison, an American. Maybe other Americans will comment on it? maybe it is different in US Eng?
in Britain Present Perfect suggests completion, anyway. Though I don't recall seeing it used with teh Past Perfect tense. Although it makes perfect sense, from the point of view of logic, so why not.


Ex: "I was seldom able to see an opportunity until it had ceased to be one". Mark Twain quotes (American humorist, writer and lecturer. 1835-1910).

past perfect used to stress the fact that when he could see there had been an opportunity, it wasnt in existence any more

Ex: Like the classic line about the aggrieved partner in a romantic relationship, the smaller donor star gave, and gave, and gave some more until it had nothing left to give,

no past perfect here



I think the sentence :
Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained.

doesn't make sense.
kasia   Monday, May 23, 2005, 09:14 GMT
>Yes, we agree to the idea of "past of the past", but this is the trouble, because now we cannot explain the example with the past perfect.

As a whole, here everyone agrees to the example with simple past, but not the past perfect. But what about the examples I quoted from the web? They are in the past perfect, so I don't understand.

Are you implying the one by Mark Twain is also wrong?<

No I am not implying Mark Twain was wrong. I just cannot see a parallel between Twain's sentence and your example.

Twain makes sense: the opportunity had already gone when I saw it.

vs yours Ex2: He worked in the field until it had rained.

- it's simply illogical. Draw a diagram, maybe that will help. The only place in time where you could possibly position that rainfall is in the middle of fieldwork - which is then interrupted by it. Get it???:)
Eng   Monday, May 23, 2005, 09:53 GMT
>>Ex: "I was seldom able to see an opportunity until it had ceased to be one". Mark Twain quotes (American humorist, writer and lecturer. 1835-1910).

past perfect used to stress the fact that when he could see there had been an opportunity, it wasnt in existence any more <<

I am afraid you have mistaken "was seldom able" as 'could see', now the tails are kept as the same -- "it had ceased to be one" is 'it wasn't in existence any more'.