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Revived - Pledge of Allegiance

Frances   Monday, June 13, 2005, 07:06 GMT

Pledge of Allegiance xxx Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:00 GMT Since tomorrow is flag day in the US, what do you think about the pledge of allegiance still being recited daily in American elementary schools? Travis Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:02 GMT I'm strongly against such myself, and specifically remember in high school making a point of not standing for it, *ever*, which I still don't do at public events and such where it or the national anthem are recited. zarafa Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:07 GMT Travis, where have you heard it said other than in schools? Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:08 GMT Wait a minute! You actually have a day for your flag?! greg Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:08 GMT What's flag day ? Travis Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:08 GMT zarafa, well, I wasn't referring to just the Pledge of Allegiance; I was also referring to things like the National Anthem at sporting events and like as well. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:12 GMT Flag Day: Flag Day, is a day for all Americans to celebrate and show respect for our flag, it's designers and makers. Our flag is representative of our independence and our unity as a nation.....one nation, under God, indivisible. Our flag has a proud and glorious history. It was at the lead of every battle fought by Americans. Many people have died protecting it. It even stands proudly on the surface of the moon. As Americans, we have every right to be proud of our culture, our nation, and our flag. So raise the flag today and every day with pride! (Throwing up right now) zarafa Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:14 GMT Sander, where'd you come across the patriotic stuff? Or did you make it up? Travis Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:17 GMT Sander, one must remember though that many here have a rather cynical (or apathetic) view of such nationalistic shit, which unfortunately is also rather prevalent in many other contexts here as well. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:27 GMT Zarafa, No,I could never make that up,I googled and found http://www.google.nl/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.holidayinsights.com/other/flagday.htm&e=9711 Its all in there... If there's one thing that I hate its this kind of nationalistic nonsens (not just from the USA) greg Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:29 GMT "one nation, under God" Unthinkable in France. To some extent the USA looks very 19th century. I'm thinking about pompous nationalist rhetoric or antiquated traditions : swear on the bible, <in god we trust>, flags in every garden, <god bless America> etc. All this is not exactly the postmodernist side of the USA... Damian from Edinburgh Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:30 GMT I the UK a "flag day" means a day set aside for collections for charities.....such as cancer care, multiple sclerosis or any officially approved cause. It means people standing in the streets or shopping centres with collecting tins and wearing the appropriate gear..banners or sashes or tabards bearing the name of the relative charity organisation The flag bit I guess refers to the little adhesive labels given to donors to place on their lapels ...or anywhere they fancy...their forehead if they feel wacky enough. greg Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:30 GMT Oh I forgot the best one : the hand on the heart when they play the national anthem... Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:31 GMT In the Netherlands its Illegal to hang out the flag on a normal day... Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:39 GMT But in America you nearly drown in them... EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:44 GMT Illegal on a normal day? What kind of day is it with all those flags out for passing royalty or sport events like the olympics? Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:45 GMT Thats queens day. zarafa Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:47 GMT Sander, I went to your link and clicked on the link about how to fold the flag. If you scroll down on that page, you can read about a scarily interesting flag folding ceremony. Back to xxx's question, I don't approve of the pledge of allegiance, either with or without the "under God" part. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:51 GMT Well it's the same patriotic display of nationalism. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:53 GMT No,thats honouring our queen. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 09:58 GMT IT's not a flag of the queen; it's a flag of the country Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:00 GMT The flag is property of the queen,and you might have noticed that the dominant colour on Queens day is Orange not the Red-Whit-Blue... EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:01 GMT I also see the national Red-Whit-Blue being waved. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:03 GMT Of course why not?It is a National holiday. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:05 GMT http://www.seniorweb.nl/vrijetijdsweb/oranje/art/kids.jpg http://www.rtvnoord.nl/pics/Koninginnedag2004/AankomstGroningenGrotemarkt2_klein.jpg http://www.rtvnoord.nl/pics/Koninginnedag2004/AankomstGroningenGrotemarkt2_klein.jpg http://www.shipmate.nl/afbeeldingen/vlaggen/richt-or.gif EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:14 GMT I know. That's why I said "patriotic display of nationalism" Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:19 GMT Its not nationalism,nor patriotism. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:20 GMT Then they may as well be waving the American flag. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:21 GMT And why is that?! EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:22 GMT BTW, you're contradicting yourself ->"It is a National holiday." and ... "Its not nationalism,nor patriotism." Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:24 GMT BTW,Im not you should read better.. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:24 GMT What you just wrote doesn't make any sense. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:27 GMT Waving a national flag on a national day, is a display of nationalism. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:28 GMT No,what your writing down is making no sense. EG, Sander:Its not nationalism,nor patriotism. EU-ropean:Then they may as well be waving the American flag. ?! Does that make sense to you?! Queensday is a day when the entire country celebrates the Birthday of our queen (its not her real birthday btw) Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:31 GMT Its a day on which we honour our queen,we don't recall Dutch history,or things we are great in.We just party. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:32 GMT No, I said this doesn't make sense -> "BTW,Im not you should read better.. " "EU-ropean:Then they may as well be waving the American flag. ?! Does that make sense to you?! " I was being cynical, but yes it does make sense, because if it's not a display of Dutch nationalism, then they may as well wave any flag (American as a joke). Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:33 GMT Im not laughing. In case you didnt notice Nationalism is 'Not Done' here. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:35 GMT "Its a day on which we honour our queen,we don't recall Dutch history,or things we are great in.We just party" The Queen is a part of national identity. A national flag is intrinsically a sign of nationalism whether you like it or not. EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:36 GMT "Im not laughing." Cynism doesn't get laughs. "In case you didnt notice Nationalism is 'Not Done' here" I've noticed nationalism in every nation. It is the foundation of nationhood. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:40 GMT Nationalism: noun [U] 1 the desire for and the attempt to achieve political independence for your country or nation 2 a great or too great love of your own country: The book documents the rise of the political right with its accompanying strands of nationalism and racism. This is NOT were Queensday is about. (source:Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary) EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 10:45 GMT That's only two definitions from one source. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 11:26 GMT Its the defenition of "Nationalism".Nothing more nothing less. Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 11:42 GMT Queens Birthday isn't celebrated here even we have a day for her which just occured last week. That day to some NZers are not a day of celebration but a reminder of our chains on our legs to the United Kingdom. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 11:47 GMT Pretty long chain then ... ;)http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/immigration/images/globe.jpg Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 11:50 GMT LOL Sander we also have in parliament called the 'Queens Chain' Heres is the New Zealand Oaths Current oath “I, [name], swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.” Proposed new text “I, [name], swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of New Zealand, Her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.” Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 11:52 GMT In what way is NZ dependant on the UK? Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:05 GMT No the UK is'nt dependant on the UK anymore. Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:07 GMT *isn't (mistake) Hey Sander look a Dutchman stands on the grounds of the New Zealand parliament. http://www.sculptor.co.nz/graphics/abel_tasman.JPG Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:10 GMT This could a drawing of New Zealand which I'm not sure as its in Dutch. Sander could you translates the writing on it for me? :) Heres the link http://www.teara.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/672C21CA-7F0B-45C3-86B5-89F47EE178BE/52225/a810atl.jpg Joel Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:13 GMT Could this be the Netherlands? nah its New Zealand LOL http://www.teara.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/C980FE1B-AFC5-4CD5-BAB4-85145D801406/51641/p845st.jpg Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:41 GMT Sure. Translation: ... Lands,sails and discovers with the ships the Haemskerk and the Zeahean under the command of Abel Tasman In the year 1642 the 13th December. (Picture) Here the Island of the (drie koningen,3 kings) If thou ... (not readable) EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:43 GMT "Its the defenition of "Nationalism".Nothing more nothing less." Less. Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:45 GMT Why are those kids dressed up like that? Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:47 GMT EU-ropean, Fuck off... EU-ropean Sunday, June 12, 2005, 12:48 GMT Fuck off yourself Damian waving the Saltire like mad Sunday, June 12, 2005, 13:13 GMT Plenty of Americans live in the UK... either permanently or temporarily. You can easily tell where they live as they invariably (no exaggeration!) have the Star Spangled Banner fluttering outside their homes.....sometimes more than one. There is a house not far from where we live and the SSB is always flying from a post about 20m high! I see nothing wrong with that, but it's certainly true that Americans are probably the world's keenest flag flyers! Conversely, a good many Brits live on the other side of the Pond. Check out this link on THEM flying UK flags over there among the myriads of SSBs! :-) http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293327 Gabe Sunday, June 12, 2005, 13:35 GMT It's *illegal* to fly the Dutch flag on a normal day?! Why on earth would you have a law against that? That's as silly as having a law here in the US against doing anything bad to our flag. LOL Sunday, June 12, 2005, 13:37 GMT Yeah, where's the freedom of rights if you can't fly your flag ? Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 13:57 GMT These are the days you can hang out your flag... 31-01 (01-02): Queens birthday(BV) 27-04 (28-04): Birthday of the Prince of Orange(BV) 30-04 (29-04): Queensday (UV) 04-05 (04-05): WW2 Memorial (UV) 05-05 (05-05): Liberation day(UV) 06-09 (07-09): Birthday Prince of the Netherlands(BV) 15-12 (16-12): Kingdom day (BV) *UV = Everynbody is allowed to hang out his flag *BV = Only buildings of the Dutch state are allowed to hang out the flag. Exception! Dutch vessels are allways allowed to hang out the flag,unless its 04-05 (04-05) then they have to hang it half way.http://www2.rnw.nl/images/assets/10695091 Sander Sunday, June 12, 2005, 13:58 GMT Its just protocol... andre in usa Sunday, June 12, 2005, 14:33 GMT An interesting thing about Canada... When I was there prior to 9/11, I noticed Canadian flags flying EVERYWHERE, much more than in the states. The excessive flag-waving in the U.S. has only occured after 9/11. Lazar Sunday, June 12, 2005, 15:35 GMT I'm fine with the Pledge of Allegiance, except for the "under God" part. I am strongly against any mixing of religion and state, and I think that that phrase is exclusionary toward Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, and a host of others. You need to be aware that the Pledge did *not* originally include "under God". It was added by Ike Eisenhower as an expression of theistic anti-Soviet fervor in 1954. Lazar Sunday, June 12, 2005, 15:48 GMT To bump, or not to bump. Lazar Sunday, June 12, 2005, 15:55 GMT To boldly bump, where no man has bumped before. ---------- It is actually Queen's Birthday holiday today in Australia, which people really don't care about only that it is a day off from work. Sander - I hope you realise that Tasmania (Australia's Island at the bottom) is named after Abel Tasman. There is also the Tasman Sea that lies between NZ and Australia. Occasionally you'll see an Australian flag out in a person's yard. You'll also see them in the town centre. Adelaide had a massive one that flew just outside the CBD. I'd say it was easily 5-6m long.

zarafa   Monday, June 13, 2005, 07:19 GMT

=> You need to be aware that the Pledge did *not* originally include "under God". It was added by Ike Eisenhower as an expression of theistic anti-Soviet fervor in 1954. History of the pledge: http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

Damian in Edinburgh   Monday, June 13, 2005, 08:04 GMT

There is a thread somewhere in the "British Expats in the USA" Forum dealing with the American Pledge of Allegiance issue. It's for all British people now living and/or working in the United States, and as many of them have children they have to send them to local schools over there. Anyway, in this thread the Brits complained about their children being made to follow the example of their American peers by reciting this P of A ritual every morning and in many cases objections made to the school authorities were either totally ignored or met with a certain amount of hostility. I don't seem to be able to find that thread right now so maybe it's been removed, but the top and bottom of it was the irritation and indignation the Brits felt towards the attitude of the Americans on this issue. Someone likened it to the perceived American belief that "anyone living in their country would fall over themselves in the rush of new found patriotism and intense gratitude to be afforded the privilege of living among them". It's understandable that if you choose to live in another country (or are forced to by circumstance) then you are under some obligation to make as much effort as you can to integrate and follow local customs. But when it comes to being forced to pledge allegiance to what is, to all intents and purposes, an alien flag when you hold a different nationality, then that's a different matter. At the same time many Brits living in many parts of Jesusland USA are finding themselves being ostracised to varying degrees simply because they do not follow some wacky, almost fanatical, religious road to salvation.

Gjones2   Monday, June 13, 2005, 10:33 GMT

Jesusland: Less than half of surveyed Americans say that they attend church one or more times a week. The United States ranks behind ten other nations in that category. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/rel_chu_att The importance of "moral values" in elections has also been greatly exaggerated. For instance, exit polls for voters in South Carolina (considered a "Bible Belt" state) show that when asked for the quality and the issue that mattered most in voting for president, only 14% chose 'strong religious faith' for the quality, and for the issue only 24% chose 'moral values'. (The way the poll choices were labeled gave undue prominence to "moral values" -- it's a broad term, and some of the other issues were split into more specific ones. Also it's a vague term.) Cumpulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court more than half a century ago (Barnette, 1943). The court held that it's legal for the pledge to be part of the school routine for voluntary recitation, but that no student can be compelled to recite it. http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/WVir/#opinion >...intense gratitude to be afforded the privilege of living among them. There are plenty of persons who appreciate what they consider the privilege of living here. If foreigners (or Americans, for that matter) find that they don't like living here, they are free to leave (there's no wall keeping people in). Attracting immigrants to replace them won't be difficult.