Official languages of the US

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hmm   Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:06 pm GMT
Isent Canada also some kind of "colony"
Kirk   Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:16 am GMT
<<hey kirk

I believe that I made myself misunderstood. I meant that there are no universities in the mainland US that TEACH in Spanish, that offer undergraduate or graduate programs in Spanish, like they do in French in Canada.>>

Oh, I see what you mean. Read my comments on that below.

<<Linguistic patterns? Alot of 'hispanic/latino' people that I know of whose parents or grandparents find it ideal to be bilingual, and many pursue to study Spanish and revisit their countries of origin to reorient themselves towards their multicultural identity. In the 21st century, people travel frequently to their home countries and maintain contact, unlike immigrants of many years ago. If their were public schools in California that exclusively offered their instruction in Spanish from Pre-K to the 12th grade, then many of those kids would speak Spanish amongst themselves.>>

Funny thing you mention it--there are. In fact, the nearest elementary school (and it's public) to my neighborhood has a program where students (regardless of ethnicity--man non-Hispanics do it as well) are taught in English as well as Spanish. It's so popular the waiting list is always long. But, yes, most classroom instruction statewide is in English.

<<It makes no sense that the education system values one language, English, over all others, when we live in a world where thousands are spoken.

Why would one choose to speak one language in a country that has historically been bilingual?>>

My point is that these things often boil down to natural linguistic phenomena--it's not that massive amounts of people "choose" to not speak one language or another, or consciously reject another language (altho that probably does happen in some cases), it's simply how it turns out. And yes, I'm fully aware many immigrants and immigrants' American-born offspring may often keep close ties to their countries of origin--if you read my experiences several posts ago with my Hispanic classmates, many of them returned to Mexico every year for the holidays and for the entire summer or major chunks of it--as well as for other social occasions such as weddings, etc., and obviously they spoke Spanish there. However, English was clearly their preferred and dominant language even when speaking amongst themselves in the US. None of them "chose" to reject Spanish, which they haven't done--they're proud of their Spanish-speaking abilities. However, that doesn't change the fact that even for this first generation of American-born Mexican-Americans that English had clearly become their dominant language.

I'll go back to my Spanish teacher I had for two years (including that class). She's the 2nd generation born in the US, born to Mexican American parents whose parents had immigrated from Mexico. However, she is not a native speaker of Spanish. Obviously, growing up she probably learned many individual words and some phrases but was still not a native fluent speaker of Spanish. From what she said, it wasn't that her parents discouraged use of Spanish in the home and were in fact proud of their heritage, it's just that it's not how it turned out--the dominant societal language of the US happens to be English. This is nothing revolutionary--I think this could be said for many waves of immigrants in the US, whether the "old country" was the country next door or halfway around the world. We dealt with this topic in a sociolinguistics course I took and it's a relatively common phenomenon (certainly not restricted to the US--humans have been moving around and dropping and adopting new languages forever...even when the place they moved from wasn't even that far away) and this may sound counterintuitive, but sociolinguists have found that governmental involvement in the way of official policies, official languages (whether for or against the language in question), etc. tends to have much less effect on what people actually do in terms of language than it might seem.

As I've said before, linguistic research has shown that, in predictable patterns, the higher you go in generations born in the US with Hispanics, the likelihood of them being Spanish speakers significantly drops--and this is being seen with the current generation as well as previous generations. It's just that the relative newness of large-scale Hispanic populations in the US means we're more at the beginning of a process, and thus at a different vantage point of the phenomenon, but it's still one which has been seen over and over again.

So, on the note of official languages, I doubt that having universities teach only in Spanish would change much. Let's look at Hong Kong. By law, all universities there must have the language of instruction as English. Yet Hong Kongers are almost without exception not native speakers of English, even after decades of this policy. Many learn English quite well, but aren't native speakers nonetheless and the language they speak to each other is almost always Cantonese.

Also, it's hard to compare with Canada because Canada has large groups of people who've historically been French-speaking for hundreds of years. As discussed on my previous thread, the US hasn't had a comparable section of people. Even in areas that were once Mexico's like California (and by "once" I mean in the 28 years from 1820-1848), there was a negligible population of native Spanish speakers to begin with.

If you get anything out of my post, I would just like to stress that these kinds of things are not surprising in terms of human linguistic history and that, however we may feel about any language in question, official "protection" of language in whatever fashion tends to do little. This is why I think an "official" language of English for the US would be pretty pointless and also why I see Spanish's (a language I happen to love and speak fluently) position in the US the way I do.
mjd   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:00 am GMT
Some American universities (my alma mater is one of them) are now offering undergraduate and graduate degrees in which all of the classes can be taken in Spanish.
Lazar   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:23 am GMT
Please forgive me, I'm not trying to hijack this thread...

It's just that I tried to go to the new forum (langcafe) a minute ago, and it said that I had been banned. It told me to contact the administrator, but that's sort of impossible, because if I click on any button it just gives me the banned message. So Kirk or Travis...could you perhaps ask why I've been banned?
Gjones2   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:30 am GMT
>Today you can get hundreds of channels in Spanish in the US or be in a Spanish speaking country in a couple hours in an airplane. Many German speaking people who came to the US came with the knowledge that they would never return to Europe. [Riko]

Good point.
Gjones2   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:35 am GMT
>Why would one choose to speak one language in a country that has historically been bilingual? [Riko]

Well, in the case of the United States a person who already speaks English may have other interests besides learning languages, and may prefer instead to learn how to repair automobiles or computers, to build buildings, to write books or computer programs, to grow food for people to eat, to cure sick persons, to do any of a host of things that need doing (many of which directly improve the human condition). I don't believe that anybody is advocating that people not learn other languages if they wish to, but there are some disadvantages to living in a bilingual country (that is, a country in which people need -- or are required -- to learn both languages).

Say I want to become a doctor or to do medical research, knowing the word 'heart' in two languages -- 'heart' in English and 'corazón' in Spanish -- doesn't teach me anything more about how the heart works, what can go wrong with it, and how to cure it. (Knowing 'corazón' may help me recognize the meaning of 'coronary', but I wouldn't have to learn a Romance language or Latin itself in order to learn Latin roots.) I could learn how to say the word 'heart' in two thousand languages, and when I finished, I still wouldn't know anything more about the heart itself.

I like learning languages. I believe that they give perspective on one's own language, and to the degree that they give access to different cultures, exposure to a wider range of ideas (besides having some practical benefits in some situations). There's a law of diminishing returns at work here, though, and going beyond a superficial exposure is burdensome for persons who have no special interest in languages.
Gjones2   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:40 am GMT
>humans have been moving around and dropping and adopting new languages forever [Kirk]

And they have also been having ethnic strife (with language as a primary indicator of ethnicity) forever. In this case we're talking about English speakers and Spanish speakers in the American Southwest. How did it turn out that so many persons would be speaking those languages there in the first place? Spanish and English speakers moved into the Americas and failed to adopt the "official" native languages. (The same thing had happened previously when Nahuatl speakers moved south and established the Aztec empire.)
Lazar   Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:51 am GMT
<<It's just that I tried to go to the new forum (langcafe) a minute ago, and it said that I had been banned. It told me to contact the administrator, but that's sort of impossible, because if I click on any button it just gives me the banned message. So Kirk or Travis...could you perhaps ask why I've been banned?>>

Mjd, please delete that post (and this post too, of course). It turns out that I'm not banned after all - I must have just been having strange technical difficulties.
JJM   Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:21 am GMT
1. Canada is NOT a colony. It's a sovereign country and has been since 1867.

2. English and French are the official languages of Canada. That mean that all legislation and government business conducted at the Federal level MUST be in both languages.

3. I chuckled at the thought of a Brit carping about US licences, permits and taxes etc, etc. If there is a country on this earth where the citizens are ripped off by all manner of government taxes in the guise of permits, licences and endless other fees, it's the UK.

You even need a licence for your television, for heaven's sake.
Bryan   Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:12 pm GMT
I would definitly support a bill to making English the official language of America...And about someone saying we dont need to change it because of the 'current' policy...: More immigrants are moving here, bringing their languages with them.
Sander   Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:19 pm GMT
=>because of the 'current' policy...: More immigrants are moving here, bringing their languages with them. <=

Wasn't that always the case?
Travis   Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:39 pm GMT
Bryan, I would say that this is not that significant when compared to, say, the period between 1880 and 1920 here in the US in that regards. Really. And in the end English did end up winning out nonetheless, even though there were periods where it seemed like it *wouldn't* in places, such as right here in Wisconsin. Of course, then, there were deliberate "Americanization" programs and such that were enacted, around the time of World War 1, but that's another story.
Candy   Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:10 am GMT
You even need a licence for your television, for heaven's sake. >>

But that's the case here in Germany too. Then again, you need a licence for everything in Germany, even to own a dog! (The licence costs more according to the size of the dog, hence the preponderance of small dogs)

More on-topic, English is not the official language in Britain.
Candy   Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:16 am GMT
Just to add to my last message - sorry it's off-topic again!!
You don't need a licence in the UK and Germany merely to OWN a TV - you're paying for the BBC in the UK and equivalents in Germany which don't receive any income from advertising, because they don't show any.
Sander   Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:49 am GMT
Here,(NL)

You need a licence for a dog here too. (and anything bigger than a goat)
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