Official languages of the US

Nobody   Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:09 pm GMT
Which 'European country' are you from?
Only a dumb guest   Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:28 pm GMT
I'm from a country with an official romance language .
Cro Magnon   Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:43 pm GMT
IMO, there wouldn't be much difference. All those Spanish signs that are popping up in businesses is because they want the Spanish-speaking customers to shop at their stores. If English was the official language, we'd still have the Spanish-speakers, they'd still have the same amount of money, and businesses would still want a piece of that market.
Guest   Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:57 pm GMT
I am sorry it took me so long to respond Kirk, but I've been away from a computer alot this summer. I study IT, not Linguistics, so alot of my thinking is based on actual observed experience or what I have read over the years. I don't think that using terms like Hispanic or non-Hispanic makes sense in this discussion, because there are many 'Hispanic/Latino' US citizens that have no knowledge of the Spanish language and non-Hispanic/latino people, yourself included, who DO have fluency in Spanish and that use it daily or in travel. I will just use 'Spanish speaking' or 'Latino' even though terminology utilizing 'anglophone' and 'hispanophone' is more apt.

In Upper California or other territory that the United States now occupies from Mexico, Spanish (the language and culture) for some reason, is considered foreign. In Upper California English is the only official language, even though the state's original constitution was written both in English and Spanish. You stated that the occupied territory of the US southwest was Mexican for only 28 years. But it is important to note that it was Spanish for over 400 years. The Spanish left a cultural imprint in the US southwest that has not been erased despite 160 years of US revisionist history. The idea that English belongs in the US southwest and that it is more 'native' in California or Colorado is ridiculous. Spanish has NOT been a foreign language since the days of the first Spanish expeditions in Florida and the southwest that opened those areas up to the western world about 500 years ago.

When you speak about your US-Mexican classmates, you speak of a specific group. If most of the Spanish speaking population felt like the students at your university, then such mega TV networks like Univision, Telemundo, Azteca America, Galavision, would not exist in this country. Companies like Kraft, Head and Shoulders, Ford, GM, Sony, Wal-Mat, etc, would not bother to broadcast their ads in Spanish. You discuss your Mexican-US classmates, but many US residents born in this country with a Latin American background tend to speak to eachother in Spanish. It is something that they choose to do, but I have seen this mostly in NY, NJ and Georgia and Florida. They might speak English perfectly, but prefer to speak in Spanish amongst themselves because it is something that sets them apart, that they can be proud of. There is no stigma attached to speaking Spanish, like there is in California and Texas, which I know, I have travelled to LA and have family in the DFW metro area in Texas. It seems that the areas in the USA that were under direct Spanish colonization and civilization happens to be where speaking Spanish is frowned upon, where getting stared at by ignorant and yes, racist wider Anglo society. This of course would discourage someone who knows Spanish to speak it in public.

The US began as a string of 13 colonies clinging to the Atlantic Ocean. George Washington didn't kick the British out of San Diego. To the south and west was vast Spanish territory, where Spanish culture, forms, practice and LANGUAGE dominated. The European lingua franca in these territories was Castilian Spanish. If the US today was the same as it was in 1776 then this discussion would be moot. Today, in 2005, it is not revolutionary at all to state that English is the lingua franca in these United States, and indeed possibly the world. It is impossible to advance in this country without a firm grasp of English, this is known and not debatable. We should ask ourselves, why should it be so revolutionary to accomodate the historical linguistic minority that has spoken Spanish in this nation since its outset? Why not have a federal government that you can communicate with and stay informed in Spanish, rather than English? What is so wrong with having public universities that offer all of their instruction in Spanish? Why can't those states that occupy former Spanish territory, like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc. have laws that enable a citizen be able to communicate in Spanish on an equal basis with English? In business, the judiciary, in public health clinics, in schools, and in all facets of public life why are we limited to English? The clear lack of government activity has lead to the creation of a massive, large, and vast latino underclass. This has existed since the beginning of the occupation and continues up to this day. The total denial by the Anglo establishment of the Spanish southwest will let these problems continue to fester.

If one's family is Spanish speaking, do you think that one would switch to English, a foreign language, because they personally decide to? People of Latin American background have no choice but to have a firm grasp of English in this country. The WASP establishment in the USA marginalizes ALL people without fluency in English. There has been a Spanish presence in US territory since 1513 (Ponce de Leon in Florida) . If there were 400 Spanish speakers in a mission somewhere in the middle of Colorado and no one else for hundreds of miles, those Spanish speakers still counted, still had a culture, still existed, and were not any less significant for being in a small village, just because they were nothing compared to say Mexico City or Santa Fe. They were still very Mexican. You have to understand that unless all of Latin America adopts English as its language, the overwhelming presence of Hispanic language and culture in this country and hemisphere will not disapear. It is now and has always been possible to live in many parts of this country and live a significant life in Spanish. There are many businesses where I live now that have Spanish speaking staff, and most companies offer telephone assistance in both languages. An elementary school in my area (in overwhelmingly non-Hispanic Maine) offers basic instruction in Spanish, not to help those learning English, but to give Anglo(phone) parents the opportunity to teach their children the second national language of the United States.

In regard to English language instruction in Hong Kong, you are comparing apples to oranges here. Was Hong Kong or southern China historically a British territory? Were there British settlements in Fujian and Guangzhou in the 1500s? The British came to Hong Kong in 1860, which is a blip in time when you think of the millenia of Chinese civilization and history that have existed since time immemorial. We are discussing a part of the American continent that the Spanish colonized and explored and lived in at least a hundred years before any significant English presence in this (North American) part of the world. Did the British colonial administration recognize the amazing cultural wealth of the Cantonese? Did they decide to adopt their language as the lingua franca of society during the colonial occupation of Hong Kong? We all know the anwers to these questions.

In those 28 years of Mexican administration, which you claim are insignificant and have no historical value whatsoever, was there an English speaking segment or group of people in Spanish speaking Mexico, including the occupied northern half? If you look at North American history you will realize that the Spanish in the southwest, who yes spoke Spanish, were in the southwest since the 1500s, hundreds of years ago. The Quebecois in Canada were never overwhelmed by a consistent, sustained, and illlegal invasion of Anglophone people who ethnically cleansed them and then exposed them to propaganda about their historical presence in their own land.

English and Spanish should be the two official languages in the United States for political, historical, and yes, linguistic purposes. If you truly loved Spanish as you claim Kirk, you should review some of your statements. Why not take a North American history course in a Mexican university or college in Spanish, a language that you are fluent in? You will have a broader understanding of the history and culture in this American continent that we ALL live on.
Riko   Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:59 pm GMT
The above message directed to Kirk is from me, Riko. I forgot to write my name. :)
Travis   Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:14 am GMT
Of course, the problem with making specifically Spanish alone an official language (alongside English of course) is that such would then be exclusive to just English and Spanish alone, and one must remember that those are not the only languages spoken in the US today, even though they are the most prominent ones nonetheless. To make those two official would be to make all other languages specifically non-official on paper. Of course, legislating official protection and like to minority languages is another thing, and which, yes, I would not be against such in the case of Spanish, and such sorts of things have already been legislated in some states, such as with Hawai'ian in Hawai'i. However, though, government protection of languages has generally not been that effective in and of itself, except in cases where there is actually education in various languages and like, but even that has not necessarily been effective, as seen with the case of Swedish in Finland.
Uriel   Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:22 am GMT
"Occupied Spanish Territory?" "Revisionist US history?" Honey, get over it. Land changes hands; that's the way of the world. And that's coming from someone in the state that has the HIGHEST percentage of hispanic Americans in the US.
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greg   Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:53 pm GMT
Guest : « Why can't those states that occupy former Spanish territory, like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc. have laws that enable a citizen be able to communicate in Spanish on an equal basis with English? »

La Louisiane est historiquement franco-espagnole. L'administration louisianaise était bilingue français-anglais jusqu'à la guerre de Sécession. pour le petite histoire, le gouverneur Jacques Villeré (XIXe siècle) ne parlait pas du tout anglais.




Guest : « The Quebecois in Canada were never overwhelmed by a consistent, sustained, and illlegal invasion of Anglophone people who ethnically cleansed them and then exposed them to propaganda about their historical presence in their own land. »

Mais ce fut malheureusement le cas des Ontariens francophones. Le Canada à l'origine c'était l'Ontario et le Québec plus le sud des Grands Lacs. Les francophones ont préféré abandonner le nom de « Canadien » pour éviter d'être confondus avec les envahisseurs.
Guest   Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:07 am GMT
Anyway, the French were invaders of North America, too.
Uriel   Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:05 am GMT
« Why can't those states that occupy former Spanish territory, like Florida, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc. have laws that enable a citizen be able to communicate in Spanish on an equal basis with English? »

Who says they don't? New Mexico DOES grant official language status to both Spanish and English. All ocfficial publications and communications are written in both. And you ain't getting out of jury duty just because you only speak Spanish -- the state is happy to furnish you with a translator.... Drive into Louisiana, and a sign welcomes you to the state in both languages. And California accomodates many more languages that just Spanish and English, believe me!
Guest   Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:59 am GMT
<<There is no stigma attached to speaking Spanish, like there is in California and Texas, which I know, I have travelled to LA and have family in the DFW metro area in Texas. It seems that the areas in the USA that were under direct Spanish colonization and civilization happens to be where speaking Spanish is frowned upon, where getting stared at by ignorant and yes, racist wider Anglo society. This of course would discourage someone who knows Spanish to speak it in public.>>

I don't know what part of Los Angeles you visited, but throughout Southern California, Spanish speakers freely speak in Spanish without anybody batting an eye. Most shops and public buildings that you enter in Los Angeles will have signage in both English and Spanish. In fact, the City of Los Angeles is required by municipal law to provide Spanish translations of every single Council and Commission meeting that it conducts. Yet during the El Grito and Cinco de Mayo celebrations that took place in Council Chambers during a City Council session, the mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, the City councilmen Ed Perez, Tony Cardenas, Alex Padilla, and José Huizar, and other prominent Latino-Americans gave their speeches in Spanish WITHOUT providing any English translations whatsoever.
Kirk   Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:28 am GMT
<<I don't know what part of Los Angeles you visited, but throughout Southern California, Spanish speakers freely speak in Spanish without anybody batting an eye. Most shops and public buildings that you enter in Los Angeles will have signage in both English and Spanish. In fact, the City of Los Angeles is required by municipal law to provide Spanish translations of every single Council and Commission meeting that it conducts. Yet during the El Grito and Cinco de Mayo celebrations that took place in Council Chambers during a City Council session, the mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, the City councilmen Ed Perez, Tony Cardenas, Alex Padilla, and José Huizar, and other prominent Latino-Americans gave their speeches in Spanish WITHOUT providing any English translations whatsoever.>>

Yup. Spanish as a written and spoken language is quite common thruout California and few bat an eye. I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley (about 400 miles north of the US-Mexican border), and went to a high school which is about 40% Mexican Americans. Not all Mexican Americans speak Spanish, but I did hear Spanish commonly spoken all the time whether I was at high school or just in the surrounding community. I also heard plenty of other languages--the high school I graduated from has a stat on its website saying that 21 languages are spoken by the student populace there, and that's normal for pretty much any area in California. Signs and other written forms of the language are commonly in Spanish and English, and often in a multitude of other languages, as California has people from all over the world in large numbers.

<<And California accomodates many more languages that just Spanish and English, believe me!>>

Yup. I hear multiple languages spoken around me every day in my daily life here in California. Where I live now I commonly hear Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean, and to a lesser extent Japanese and Vietnamese, amongst other languages.

<<racist wider Anglo society.>>

You're betraying your lack of knowledge about California. "Wider?" "Anglo?" That implies Anglos form some kind of majority. Californians of Anglo descent form about 8% of the population. Even if you mean Californians of *European* descent (a much bigger umbrella that should not be confused with Anglos--they're not interchangeable terms. An Italian American, German American, or a Swedish American is not Anglo by any means), that's about 45%. There is no ethnic majority in the state of California. In fact, in terms of largest single ethnic groups, Mexican Americans form the largest single group in California, at 25%.

<<This of course would discourage someone who knows Spanish to speak it in public.>>

You have no idea what you're talking about.
Alicia   Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:56 pm GMT
Even in Northern California, nurses in public hospitals *have* to speak Spanish. Not too certain about private hospitals though, where costs are much higher, I've heard.
Tiffany   Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:55 pm GMT
Let me also add my wo cents, as I am from Northern California. Spanish speakers may also speak Spanish at the supermarket if they so please, and be served. I have witnessed this on many occasions.

Echoing the others: I have no idea what part of California you are from, but it certainly isn't anywhere close to where I live. Here there are billboards in Spanish. I, as a minority in the US, do not feel so in Northern California. I'd be hard-pressed to think Hispanic-Americans do either!