Latin Pronounciation

Caspian   Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:25 pm GMT
How is this creating new Germanic words? Just because we use Latin or Greek words, it doesn't mean they become Germanic because we use them. You can argue that English is not a hybrid, but if you compare it to French or German, it is. The 'en' you talk about could also be from a Germanic root. German 'verstanden' (understood) or 'gesprochen' (spoken) - these are similar to the infinitive form, but not in these examples.
Our word order is mainly from the Romance languages (Latin). The infinitive does not go to the end of the sentence. We have no cases (like the Romance languages - not Latin though. I don't know Greek, but I'm sure that there are examples of Greek grammar in English, as there are of Germanic grammar.

Arabic is a bad example, because it is unrelated to English - I could say that English has no Chinese 'x' sound (Hanyu PinYin). Also, Spanish does tend to stray from the pattern - however Italian and Romanian do (and they are the most closely related to Latin) and French does, although it has evolved a lot away from Latin.
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:51 pm GMT
<<How is this creating new Germanic words? Just because we use Latin or Greek words, it doesn't mean they become Germanic because we use them. You can argue that English is not a hybrid, but if you compare it to French or German, it is. The 'en' you talk about could also be from a Germanic root. German 'verstanden' (understood) or 'gesprochen' (spoken) - these are similar to the infinitive form, but not in these examples.
Our word order is mainly from the Romance languages (Latin). The infinitive does not go to the end of the sentence. We have no cases (like the Romance languages - not Latin though. I don't know Greek, but I'm sure that there are examples of Greek grammar in English, as there are of Germanic grammar. >>

Wow! No wonder you said English was hybrid. According to what you have written here, it would be. However, you are mistaken about some things:

<How is this creating new Germanic words? Just because we use Latin or Greek words, it doesn't mean they become Germanic because we use them.>

Yes. Whenever a foreign word becomes an English word, it becomes a germanic word, because English is germanic. For instance, the English word "protect". It is borrowed from a latin form 'protectus', but it is a germanic word. It wasn't inherited, otherwise it would look like "protege" or something to that effect. Also, the word "focus". It is germanic, but its form has root in the Latin word 'focus' meaning fireplace. Do we use it to mean fireplace? or Fire? No. It was first used by Johannes Kepler, a German in its modern sense. (and don't bring up Spanish/Portugues foco-- they borrowed it from English.)

<The 'en' you talk about could also be from a Germanic root. German 'verstanden' (understood) or 'gesprochen' (spoken) - these are similar to the infinitive form, but not in these examples. >

It is well established that our -en ending is attributed to Old Norse -inn, the 'n' remaining strong due to the double 'n' of -inn. Also, -en was prevalent in the Danelaw, not in West Saxon dialectal areas, where the old Germanic ending -an (cf. German -en of 'verstanden'; OE -en) had weakened to -e. Besides, Old Norse is germanic too, so yes, it comes from the same germanic root, but along a different path. --Hybrid.

<Our word order is mainly from the Romance languages (Latin). >

FALSE.
Our word order comes from Old Norse. When you compare a modern English sentence with one from Old English and one from Old Norse, you will see that the Modern English sentence is a near 100% word for word translation of Old Norse. This is substantiated by the fact that Old Norse speakers were in close contact with late Old English and Middle English speakers for several hundred years; and this word order (syntax) was already present in English before the impacts of Norman French were even being felt in English.

Now, it is coincidence that Romance languages show a similar word for word order. But this is not due to anything having to do with Romance influence or hybridization with English.

Do you see, you cannot make conclusions based on observations alone without proper research into the facts. You're getting deceived because you are seeing the end results clearly, but you are not tracing them back to their proper origins.
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:52 pm GMT
It's you who said "all languages use the 'v' sound".
For that matter, Arabic is a good counterargument.

Phrase your statements more carefully if you want this discussion remain logically sound.
Caspian   Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:58 pm GMT
Ok, you have obviously researched it well. However, I don't believe that this can be a coincidence about the Romance languages' word order. It is too big.

Curious; Where does 'but' come from? The Lithuanian 'bet'?

Oh, and other person - read above, Arabic is a bad example - I should, however, have said all languages closely related to English.
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:10 pm GMT
I'm pretty sure Spanish and Portuguese didn't borrow "foco" from English though... That must be a joke.
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:10 pm GMT
<<Curious; Where does 'but' come from? The Lithuanian 'bet'?
>>

English 'but' comes from Middle English 'but', 'boute', 'bouten' < Old English 'bútan', 'búton' = [on] the outside [of] meaning "without"
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:12 pm GMT
...cont.

bútan = be- + útan, oblique form of úta ("outside")

related to 'about' < on + bútan
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 pm GMT
<<I'm pretty sure Spanish and Portuguese didn't borrow "foco" from English though... That must be a joke. >>

fuego, no. but foco, yes. it was borrowed from English.

foco meaning what English speakers use to mean 'focus' (point of convergence) was not a natural sense development in Romance languages including Spanish, from Late latin 'focus'. It first appeared with its modern meaning in the mid 17th century (Kepler).

Modern Spanish/Portuguese 'foco' can be treated as a scientific term borrowed from English, like 'gas'/gás' (orig a Dutch word) or 'watt'/'vatio' and then made into a common word from there
Guest   Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:39 pm GMT
What? Who cares! Latin's dead!
Guest   Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:19 am GMT
Since there are people who still speak it, Latin is not dead.
Guest   Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:21 am GMT
Yeah and there are people who speak Esperanto, but that doesn't make it any less dead!
Caspian   Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:55 am GMT
Of course Latin is dead - there are no native speakers, and even if we revived it and spoke it to our children it wouldn't really be Latin because we don't know how to pronounce it.
Caspian   Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:19 am GMT
Ok, so where does the Lithuanian 'bet' come from? The old Prussian? Is it a coincidence that it is like but?
Guest   Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:35 pm GMT
>it wouldn't really be Latin because we don't know how to pronounce it.

Speak for yourself, please. I know how to pronounce it.
Caspian   Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:10 pm GMT
Nobosy does, there is no hard evidence