Barcelona Vs Spanish

Mallorquí   Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:57 pm GMT
Muy español, Franco, eso de exterminar. Pues mira, tendrás, tu y los tuyos, que quedaros con las ganas: los inmigrantes, especialmente magrebíes, están integrándose al catalán. Y lo mismo una gran proporción de sudamericanos, mal que te pese.

Tengo muchos amigos catalanoparlantes de origen hispano (tanto de España como de Sudamérica).

¿De dónde os viene esa manía exterminatoria? No soportáis que los demás existan. Pues os equivocáis. La proporción de hispanoparlantes en los Países Catalanes está disminuyendo, a la vez que aumenta la de catalanoparlantes. Según las últimas encuestas del CIS (organismo nada sospechoso de catalanofilia), en los últimos diez años la proporción de los hablantes de nuestra lengua ha aumentado en el 16%.

Gentes como tú son las que hacen que cada vez nos sintamos más lejos de España. Menos mal que, incluso en España, sois minoría. Sois la hez de la sociedad: sois los herederos de Franco. Os reconcome la rabia de ver que no conseguís borrarnos del mapa.
De Gaule   Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:37 am GMT
<< Catalonia is going to receive more millions of Spanish speakers like she did since the 60's, but now instead of Andalussians and other southern Spaniards they are Ecuadorians, Peruvians and so on. So stop dreaming, most of Catalans are native Spanish speakers nowadays. The only problem is that the Catalan speaking elite refuses to die and pretends to control the province , but I guess that someday they will have to be exterminated. >>

French speakers in France incresed because speakers of regional languages switched to French. Haven't you noticed that just before WW II the number. Because to them being part of France is not bad at all meaning if they speak French the better or their ancestral language good unlike in Spain that speakers of regional languages including Asturians, Aragonese, Leonese, Murvians, Extremadurans etc. feels like being hell to be part of Spain. They wish that France annexed them.

You know if only Catalonia became part of France, then there would have been no language and cultural agitation like they way it fiercely resist Castillian language and culture.
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:40 am GMT
<< # Occitan: 1,670,000 (3.65%)
# German and German dialects: 1,440,000 (3.15%)
# Oïl languages (excl. French): 1,420,000 (3.10%)
# Arabic: 1,170,000 (2.55%) >>

# Occitan: 1,670,000 (3.65%) before WW II 15 million
# German and German dialects: 1,440,000 (3.15%) before WW-II >5%
# Oïl languages (excl. French): 1,420,000 (3.10%), now they all speak French
# Arabic: 1,170,000 (2.55%), 2nd generation speak French and no Arabic
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:45 am GMT
Europe News
World language Spanish threatened in Spain, campaign claims (Feature)

By Sinikka Tarvainen Jul 25, 2008, 2:08 GMT

Madrid - While Spanish is consolidating its position as one of the world's most international languages, a debate is raging in Spain on whether it is under attack in the country where it was born.

A group of intellectuals, some media outlets and citizens' associations have launched a campaign in 'defence' of Spanish which they see as being endangered in regions promoting their own languages in the country with a plural identity.

The debate focuses on whether parents wanting to educate their children only or mainly in Spanish should be able to do so in Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, the Basque region and Galicia, which want pupils to learn Catalan, Basque or Galician alongside Spanish.

The pro-Spanish campaigners stress the role of Spanish - known in Spain as Castilian, language of the region of Castile - as the only language common to all Spaniards and as one of the cornerstones of the national identity.

The idea that a language spoken by 500 million people worldwide could be threatened by minority languages is nothing short of ridiculous, regionalists hit back.

Spoken in most of Latin America, Spanish is the second most important language in the United States.

It is also studied increasingly worldwide, making it the most widely used language after Mandarin Chinese, Hindi and English, according to Culture Minister Cesar Antonio Molina.

In Spain itself, however, regional governments are questioning the domination of Spanish in an attempt to promote regional languages.

These include Catalan, spoken widely in Catalonia, a north-eastern region of 7 million residents, and on the Balearic Islands; Basque, spoken by about a quarter of the region's 2.1 million residents; and Galician, the first language of more than 60 per cent of the region's 2.8 million inhabitants.

Catalan and Galician are Romance languages related to Spanish, while Basque or Euskera is not known to be related to any other language and is much more difficult for Spanish-speakers to learn.

Dictator Francisco Franco, who ruled from 1939 to 1975, repressed the use of regional languages which could often not even be spoken in public.

Franco's death in 1975 turned the tide. The constitution now establishes the coexistence of regional languages with Spanish. Regions enjoy wide measures of autonomy including the right to teach regional languages in schools.

Some now see the decentralization as having gone too far, with Catalonia and Galicia having made bilingual education compulsory and the Basque region preparing to adopt a similar policy.

Policies to promote regional languages are the most extensive in Catalonia, where the regional government is sparking controversy with plans to cut down the number of Spanish classes from three to two a week in primary school.

Even children of immigrants from Latin America or Africa now speak Catalan, a language without the knowledge of which it is often difficult to find a job in the region.

Educational and other measures to popularize regional languages sparked a 'manifesto for the common language' launched by some 20 journalists, philosophers, historians and authors including Mario Vargas Llosa of Peru.

Parents' associations have also sprung up in several regions, demanding the right to educate children in Spanish.

The most vocal critics include representatives of the opposition conservative People's Party (PP), which has also accused Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's Socialists of endangering national unity by granting regions more self-government.

Madrid media close to the PP accuse Zapatero of allowing regionalists to 'persecute' the national language, something that the government firmly denies.

The coexistence of Spanish with other languages was 'the richest, most open and most democratic' way, the premier said.

The government has done a lot to make Spanish more popular in the world, establishing dozens of new Cervantes Institutes to spread it, Molina said.

Some experts worry that Catalan or Basque children will speak poor Spanish after learning it mainly from television and stress the right of parents to make educational choices for their children.

Children in some Catalan schools reportedly have trouble expressing themselves in Spanish.

Overall, however, there are few signs that teaching regional languages would have undermined the Catalans', Basques' or Galicians' knowledge of Spanish and regionalists dismiss such arguments as absurd.

'If any language is threatened, it is not Spanish, but Catalan,' Catalan politician Josep Antoni Duran y Lleida said, attributing the language row to underlying political power struggles.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1419303.php/World_language_Spanish_threatened_in_Spain_campaign_claims__Feature_
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:48 am GMT
Talkback

Add your comment (no registration required)

page: 1

Bill ChapmanJul 25th, 2008 - 06:37:13


Regional and minority languages such as Galician, Basque and Welsh are treaures like rare wild flowers which need to be preserved. I am in favour of a radical solution: use the regional language within the region, use the state language within the state, and use Espertanto for international communication.

Report this comment

odeteresaJul 25th, 2008 - 08:59:23


http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1419303.php/World_language_Spanish_threatened_in_Spain_campaign_claims__Feature_

Castilian language was born in the Kingdom of Castile, which later became an Empire, thus spreading (= imposing) its own language, culture and religion on many territories across the world (by killing,torturing and expatriating millions).

Of course, this long process begun with the other kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula (they succeeded in Galiza and Al-Andalus and they failed in Portugal, thanks to England's support).

Galician kingdom was the matrix of two kingdons: Galiza and Portugal. The portuguese language was therefore born in Galiza and it is still spoken there (where it is referred to as Galician or Galician-Portuguese). Thus, galician language is by no means a 'regional' language, but an international and wide-spread one).

No question that the Spanish authorities have always tried to isolate galician language from the Portuguese world to which it belongs and convert it into a Spanish dialect, which, on top of it, was proscribed during the fascist dictatorship of General Francisco Franco.

I beleive that after several centuries of repression and colonialism, we Galicians, should now have the right to educate our kids in our own language (which is an internationally useful language still spoken by most of the Galician population). If the fact that we are in Spain is going to be the excuse to keep on prohibiting our language and culture, well, then maybe we should not be in Spain... Of course we will never renounce to the treasure of the spanish language (which, by the way, is more correctly spoken in Galiza than it is in Madrid), but we firmly demand respect for our own: galician-portuguese language, which was born in Galiza.

Report this comment

July the 25th GalizaNationalDayJul 25th, 2008 - 11:40:46

Watch out for those 'Spanish speakers' in Galiza or Catalonia claiming his 'rights' (created by the Spanish rule), no matter what the democratically elected Galician parliament rolls off. Any organisation with the word 'bilingual' on its title is made up by monolingual Spanish speakers aiming to wipe Galician language out of Galiza.

The trick is to reverse the plot: it is not Spain forcing small old kingdoms, it is actually those Spanish speakers being abused by Galician nationalism.

Check what is happening in the Basque Country, where a plebiscite over independence come out of the democratically elected Basque parliament is on hold by Madrid.

It is time for you to meet the new Spanish Nationalism based on 'defendless Spanish speakers' who are trying to keep rights imposed by centuries of Spanish dominion (the core of Spanish far right). The United Kingdom eases the tie on Scotland. This is definitely not for Spain.

Report this comment

CitizenJul 25th, 2008 - 13:43:17

The only languages threatened in Spain are these regional ones.

Report this comment

GalicianJul 25th, 2008 - 16:08:30

It's nice to read the opinion of someone's who wiev this topic from the distance. I'm galician and I have to say that it's being threatened. Nowadays, some great advances to stop this situation are taking place.

Report this comment

galegoJul 25th, 2008 - 21:31:14

que vaiam tomar polo...... os imperialistas espanhois.
VIVA GALIZA CEIVE!!!!!!!!

Report this comment

PereJul 28th, 2008 - 15:35:51

If in Catalonia there is a language in danger this is, without a shadow of a doubt, Catalan.

Catalan has been forbidden by the Spanish regimes and governments for centuries (1714 - 1932, 1939-1978). It is important to realise that Castilian speakers in Catalonia believe that Castilian language is NOT in danger over there. The 'manifesto' has been written in Madrid and with the clear aim to acomplish what the Castilian acomplished in South America: to eliminate any native-language to impose their own one.

Galego is the language of Galizia, Basque -spoken in the Basque Country-is probably the oldest and one of the few remaining native European languages still alive and Catalan is the original language of the Catalans, Valencians and the Balearic Islands.

Castilian should remain the language of the Castilians. Obviously, that does not mean to abolish it from the streets of Barcelona, Bilbao or Santiago. I am proud to be able to speak three languages. I believe in a multilingual Europe and, therefore, I believe I should have the right to speak Catalan in Catalonia as English speak theirs in England.
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:50 am GMT
Spain’s regional languages squeezing out Spanish 25/06/2008 00:00

The rampant use of Catalan and Basque in schools and public services discriminates against Spaniards who can only speak Spanish, say intellectuals.

25 June 2008

MADRID - Spanish is the first language of up to 400 million people worldwide, but, according to a group of writers, historians and philosophers, it is coming under threat in its homeland.

The creeping use of Catalan and Basque for education and in practically all public services in Catalonia and the Basque Country has led a group of intellectuals to publish a "Manifesto for a common language" in a bid to goad the government into defending people's right to use Spanish anywhere in Spain.

"For several years there have been growing reasons to worry about the institutional status of the Spanish language in our country," the manifesto warns. It goes on to demand that parliament approve legislation to ensure "unequivocally" that Spanish is the single, common and official language" nationwide.

In Catalonia, practically all classes in public and many private schools are taught in Catalan, with Spanish offered only as a second language as English and French are elsewhere.

Similar changes are also making progress in the Basque Country, while in both regions it has become common practice to stop people taking public jobs - even as garbage collectors or gardeners - if they cannot speak the regional tongue.

Spain's Socialist government has so far failed to intervene in the defence of Spanish - a taboo issue after decades of linguistic repression in Catalonia, the Basque Country, and to a lesser extent Galicia, under the Franco regime.

Now, the authors of the manifesto argue, the discrimination flows in the opposite direction, particularly affecting Spaniards from other areas of Spain and foreign immigrants who take up residency in regions where another language is spoken.

"It is one thing to promote knowledge of the regional language and another to impose it at the expense of the common language," philosopher Fernando Savater declared at the presentation of the manifesto in Madrid on Monday. "This discrimination... hurts the least fortunate the most, including immigrants, by denying them social and job opportunities," he added.

The manifesto is supported by around 20 noted intellectuals, including historian Carmen Iglesias and writer Álvaro Pombo.

[El Pais / E. Granda / Expatica]

http://www.expatica.com/nl/articles/news/Spain_s-regional-languages-squeezing-out-Spanish-.html
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:11 am GMT
France - French 100%, rapidly declining regional dialects (Provençal, Breton, Alsatian, Corsican, Catalan, Basque, Flemish)

Morocco - Arabic (official), Berber dialects, French often used for business, government, and diplomacy ****AQUI NO SE HABLE ESPAÑOL****

================================================

Argentina - Spanish (official), English, Italian, German, French

Bolivia - Spanish (official), English, Italian, German, French

Costa Rica - Spanish (official), English.

Ecuador - Spanish (official), Quechua, other Amerindian languages

Equatorial Guinea - Spanish, French (both official); pidgin English, Fang, Bubi, Ibo

Gibraltar - English (used in schools and for official purposes), Spanish, Italian, Portuguese

Guatemala - Spanish 60%, Amerindian languages 40% (23 officially recognized Amerindian languages, including Quiche, Cakchiquel, Kekchi, Mam, Garifuna, and Xinca)

Honduras - Spanish (official), Amerindian dialects; English widely spoken in business

Mexico - Spanish, various Mayan, Nahuatl, and other regional indigenous languages

Panama - Spanish (official), English 14%, lots of bilinguals

Paraguay - Spanish, Guaraní (both official)

Peru - Spanish, Quéchua (both official); Aymara; many minor Amazonian languages

Puerto Rico - Spanish, English

Spain- Castilian Spanish 74% (official nationwide); Catalan 17%, Galician 7%, Basque 2% (each official regionally)

Venezuela - Spanish (official), numerous indigenous dialects

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855611.html


Based on the data above, French will become official in Argentina and since there are lots of French language schools in Spain than Spanish language schools in France and the quality of French spoken by the Castellano Spaniards is high while the Spanish of French is low limited to "hola, como esta, hasta la vista", it also suggest that French will become official in Spain.
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:16 am GMT
ERRATUM

Bolivia - Spanish 60.7% (official), Quechua 21.2% (official), Aymara 14.6% (official), foreign languages 2.4%, other 1.2% (2001 census)
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:18 am GMT
Western Sahara - Hassaniya Arabic, Moroccan Arabic ****AQUI NO SE HABLA ESPAÑOL OTRO****
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:20 am GMT
Status of Alsatian in France

The constitution of the Fifth Republic states that French alone is the official language of the Republic. However Alsatian, along with other regional languages, are recognized by the French government in the official list of languages of France. A 1999 INSEE survey counted 548,000 adult speakers of Alsatian in France, making it the second most-spoken regional language in the country (after Occitan). Like all regional languages in France, however, the transmission of Alsatian is on the decline. While 39% of the adult population of Alsace speaks Alsatian, only one in four children speaks it, and only one in ten children uses it regularly.
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:22 am GMT
Lorraine Franconian (French: francique mosellan, platt lorrain, platt mosellan) is a designation, in practice ambiguous, for dialects of German spoken in the north-eastern part of the French region of Lorraine. These dialects all belong to the Western Central High German (German: Westmitteldeutsch) group of German dialects. The term Lorraine Franconian has multiple denotations. Some scholars use it to refer to the entire above mentioned group of dialects. Others use it more narrowly to refer to the dialect spoken in the valley of the river Nied (in Pays du Nied, whose largest town is Bouzonville), to distinguish it from the other two German dialects spoken in Lorraine, Luxembourgish to the west and Rhine Franconian (or Rhine Frankish) to the east. The Pays du Nied dialect belongs to the Moselle Franconian (Germanic) group of West Central German dialects.

In part due to the ambiguity of the term, estimations of the number of speakers of Lorraine Franconian in France vary widely, ranging from 30,000 to 400,000 (according to some militant groups, which would make it the 3rd most-spoken regional language in France, after Occitan and Alsatian).

The most reliable data come from the Enquête famille carried out by INSEE as part of the 1999 census, but they give a somewhat indirect picture of the current situation (see Languages in France for a discussion of this survey). Approximately 78,000 people were reported to speak Lorraine Franconian, but fewer than 50,000 passed basic knowledge of the language on to their children. Another statistic illustrating the same point: Of all adult men who used Franconian regularly at age 5, less than 30% use (or used) the language regularly with their own children.
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:24 am GMT
Much effort has been made since 1974 to protect and promote Asturian[2]. In 1994 there were 100,000 first language speakers, and 450,000 second language speakers able to speak or understand Asturian[3]. However, the situation of Asturian is critical, with a large decline in the number of speakers in the last 100 years.

At the end of the 20th century, the Academia de la Llingua Asturiana made efforts to provide the language with most of the tools needed by a language to ensure its survival: a grammar, a dictionary, and periodicals. A new generation of Asturian writers both in Asturias have also championed the language. These developments give the Asturian language a greater hope of survival.

Many people from Asturias, especially from the cities like Gijón or Oviedo, think that Asturian is a rude and "village" language. One can find some accent in Asturian persons speaking Spanish; for example, they often change es ("is" in Spanish) to ye ("is" in Asturian).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturian
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:25 am GMT
Status of Alsatian in France

The constitution of the Fifth Republic states that French alone is the official language of the Republic. However Alsatian, along with other regional languages, are recognized by the French government in the official list of languages of France. A 1999 INSEE survey counted 548,000 adult speakers of Alsatian in France, making it the second most-spoken regional language in the country (after Occitan). Like all regional languages in France, however, the transmission of Alsatian is on the decline. While 39% of the adult population of Alsace speaks Alsatian, only one in four children speaks it, and only one in ten children uses it regularly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_language
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:27 am GMT
orraine Franconian (French: francique mosellan, platt lorrain, platt mosellan) is a designation, in practice ambiguous, for dialects of German spoken in the north-eastern part of the French region of Lorraine. These dialects all belong to the Western Central High German (German: Westmitteldeutsch) group of German dialects. The term Lorraine Franconian has multiple denotations. Some scholars use it to refer to the entire above mentioned group of dialects. Others use it more narrowly to refer to the dialect spoken in the valley of the river Nied (in Pays du Nied, whose largest town is Bouzonville), to distinguish it from the other two German dialects spoken in Lorraine, Luxembourgish to the west and Rhine Franconian (or Rhine Frankish) to the east. The Pays du Nied dialect belongs to the Moselle Franconian (Germanic) group of West Central German dialects.

In part due to the ambiguity of the term, estimations of the number of speakers of Lorraine Franconian in France vary widely, ranging from 30,000 to 400,000 (according to some militant groups, which would make it the 3rd most-spoken regional language in France, after Occitan and Alsatian).

The most reliable data come from the Enquête famille carried out by INSEE as part of the 1999 census, but they give a somewhat indirect picture of the current situation (see Languages in France for a discussion of this survey). Approximately 78,000 people were reported to speak Lorraine Franconian, but fewer than 50,000 passed basic knowledge of the language on to their children. Another statistic illustrating the same point: Of all adult men who used Franconian regularly at age 5, less than 30% use (or used) the language regularly with their own children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine_Franconian
Guest   Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:30 am GMT
Legal Status

Leonese was recognised as a seriously endangered language by UNESCO, in 2006. The only legal reference to this language is in the Autonomy Statute of Castile and Leon[6].

The Province of León government supports the knowledge of this language through courses, by celebrating "Leonese Language Day" and by sponsoring literary efforts in the Leonese Language, such as "Cuentos del Sil", where nine writers from teenagers to people in their eighties develop several stories in Leonese.

Leonese Local Government uses Leonese Language in some of their bureaus, organize courses for adult people and in 2007 organized Leonese Language Day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonese