Are there any linguists among Antimooners?

Guest2, you asked about Cognitive Dissonance. A complete account of it would ramble on for pages, and would not be tolerated by the moderators, so I'll have to give you an abridged version.

When we grow up, all the perceptions we have are combined into a sort of gestalt of an accepted norm. Anything we perceive after childhood is judged through the viewpoint of accepted norm. If we perceive something similar, our brains register a MATCH. If we perceive something dissimilar, our brains register a MISMATCH; if this mismatch is strong enough, it causes a jarring sensation in the brain, that registers a most unpleasant emotion.

This cognitive dissonance seems to branch into every area of our lives. To give you just one illustrative example, I think you'll find very few Germans who really love Indian music. To give another, Germans are probably puzzled by the willing servitude of Islamic women, and bewildered and amused by religious fanaticism in certain quarters of the US.

In respect to languages, cognitive dissonance is probably neuronal in origin. One study was done with 6-9 month old babies. It was noticed that babies growing up in Swedish families showed significantly more neuronal excitement when hearing Swedish than when hearing Mandarin Chinese. It was deduced that neuronal activity concerning language development begins very early in life.

How is this germane to our discussion? Questions were raised about why one dialect (or language) is perceived as pleasant by one listener, while being perceived as unpleasant by another; cognitive dissonance may prove to be the answer.

Let's take the example of Southern American English. British English speakers tend to find this dialect pleasant, while General American English speakers deem it unpleasant. A peek inside the vowel structure reveals clues. BrEng speakers and SAE speakers both tend to dipthongize the long -A sound in the word "bake"; GAE speakers do not. This similarity in vowel structure registers a MATCH for the BrEng speaker, and a MISMATCH for the GAE speaker, so the GAE perceives SAE as "unpleasant".

On the other side of the coin, some GAE dialects dipthongize the short-a sound in words like "back", "had", etc. (This is sometimes denied, but it's very obvious. Have you heard Sarah Palin speak? She does it all the time). Neither SAE speakers nor BrEng speakers dipthongize that vowel, so it registers as a MISMATCH in the SAE brain. This is one reason why SAE speakers perceive GAE dialects as "nasty".

So you have the odd dichotomy of SAE--an American dialect--closer to British English in some key aspects than it is to General American English, and the curious enigma of SAE speakers and GAE speakers hating each others' dialects.

This cognitive dissonance might transfer to the topic of foreign languages, too. Is it not a fact that we tend to prefer languages closer to our own in nature? A German might prefer the sounds of Swedish, for example, to the nasal, discordant sounds of a language such as Cambodian or Tagalog. For my own part, I find Swedish--a tongue closer to my own--a beautiful tongue, while Cambodian--an aggressively nasal tongue--absolutely unbearable to hear.

...which leads us to nasal tongues. Guest2, most tongues on the Earth are not nasal; the few nasal tongues you find seem to be focused in SouthEast Asia. If we want to accept cognitive dissonance as a fact, most listeners around the world who speak in nonnasal tongues would necessarily perceive these nasal tongues as "unpleasant". I know I certainly do...

Your explanations are very interesting, Jasper. You point out some cerebral ''mechanism'' providing for the physiological basic of ''like'' and ''dislike''. (It is most likely that such an mechanism exists, because we are based on physiology. So, form this point of view, you don't surprise me.)

<<This cognitive dissonance seems to branch into every area of our lives.>>

Yes, I agree absolutely!

I was brought up in a way that my mother was somewhat nasty if I didn't like something she considered as a thing I must accept, if done by others, even if I dislike it. I dimly remember that at that time, I wondered if it is ''physiological'' that I dislike it an my dislike must be accepted. And because it's based in my physiology, one should force others/I should have the right to force others to stop doing that what is disliked.

So, what would be the social and juristical consequences of the existance of this cerebral mechanism? How would the disregard of the possible existance of such a mechanism (someone forces you to accept something you dislike, see, it's a kind of violation, regardless if its physical, optical, tactical, or olfactorical) be affect law and legal practice? (Remember, you want to be practical.)

Remember, it's also possible to become familiar with or even addicted to things you first dislike!

I don't actually know Indian music. I don't like indian cultur from that what I know about India. It's a very underdeveloped country with a very unsocial and unfair social system. But regardless of that, a few days ago, I checked out wikipedia for informations on languages spoken there.

''willing servitude of Islamic women''?

Islamic women in Europe behave just like other european women, I think.

''bewildered and amused by religious fanaticism in certain quarters of the US''?

I never was in the USA. Religious fanatism is found in many places in the world.

I don't understand what these two points should proove. I would like to draw a border line regarding cerebral mechanisms at the one hand and things like educated behaviour or religious fanatism at the other. If you don't do that, you must give up the notion of criminal behaviour and sin. Then presumbly everything can be explained with such mechnisms, leading to the concequence that it would be unfair to punisch criminal behaviour especially concerning death penalty. (BTW, I do support death penalty, but not in the american way.)

<<In respect to languages, cognitive dissonance is probably neuronal in origin. ...>>

Yes, most likely. We are based on physiology, and neurons are part of that.

I once heard to studends talking a foreign language, which sounded very nice. I asked them about it, and they told me it was Swedisch. Water to your mills! If you attend basic linguistic lectures, you will be told that language learning begins very early in life, that's very obvious, even if you don't do neuronal research for prooving it. (I would like to give you a citation form Josef Weizenbaum(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weizenbaum) concerning ''sientific perception'', but unfortunatly the text is not right at hand.)
The research you mention may be good for a lot of things, but surely is not practical in the everyday sense.

<<How is this germane to our discussion?>>

Cognitive dissonance may also be dangerous if misused. Meaning exposing children to sensations they should find positive by a fanatic dictator or religious ideology.

<<Have you heard Sarah Palin speak?>>

Who, to hell, is Sarah Palin?

I came across that name at startup of internet explorer several times, but never read about her.

<<So you have the odd dichotomy of SAE--an American dialect--closer to British English in some key aspects than it is to General American English, and the curious enigma of SAE speakers and GAE speakers hating each others' dialects.>>

Maybe that there're other reasons, too. Or does your mechanism explains all and everything? Maybe!

<<This cognitive dissonance might transfer to the topic of foreign languages, too. Is it not a fact that we tend to prefer languages closer to our own in nature?>>

Yes and no!

As you probably might now, Dutch is very close to English and German, but most of them dislike Dutch, see several Antimoon threads.

<<A German might prefer the sounds of Swedish, for example, to the nasal, discordant sounds of a language such as Cambodian or Tagalog. For my own part, I find Swedish--a tongue closer to my own--a beautiful tongue, while Cambodian--an aggressively nasal tongue--absolutely unbearable to hear.>>

I never had the chance to hear Cambodian or Tagalog. Define nasal tongue! Obviously, it's not one with nasal consonants like n, m, ng, etc, as most of the languages have them.

↑ One quick point, Guest2: Nasal tongues raise vowel sounds--as opposed to consonants--into the nasal cavity. To us of European or Latin heritage, it sounds awful. Honestly, Guest2. (By the way, referring to you as Guest2 reminds me of that science fiction movie Logan's Run)

I'll get back to you on the rest...time to go to work again!!

I don't think so. The main difficulty, I think, lies in that you are discussing with our German friend, not me.

Just disregard my stuff if you don't like. I'm just ranting about how pointless it could be to do linguistics in my city, period. Nothing about language of instruction, nothing about advanced topics in linguistics. I'm not a major.

∆ Actually, Xie, the topics you are discussing sound pretty interesting. I don't want to offend you--I want to UNDERSTAND you.

But honestly, Xie, your prose really is difficult to understand. If you don't believe me, why don't you ask the other posters?

Additions to my post from Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:48 pm GMT:

<<Guest; English alone has enough richness and variety, and the complexities of the language differ even within the United States.>>

But you stay within the English universe! Don't you like to discover a different one?

You need them to find out where you are in our world, not only in the sense of your physical position, thats what GPS is for.

❝But you stay within the English universe! Don't you like to discover a different one?
You need them to find out where you are in our world, not only in the sense of your physical position, thats what GPS is for.❞

An answer to this question will require a bit of rumination. Patience is requested.

Guest2, a topic must be loved to the point of obsession to be successfully completed at home. (It will be remembered that Tom, the Bürgermeister of this forum, is "crazy" about learning English accent elimination.) I love the topics of linguistics, neurolinguistics, forensic science, shadowing the English language, ad. nauseum., enough to study at home; hard work on beloved subjects doesn't feel like work, does it?

I don't love the study of foreign languages to this extent. This would require the discipline of a classroom setting, which is impossible in my current life situation.

K. T. Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:45 pm GMT:

<<The question you answered: I didn't ask it openly, but I wondered if it was possible to transfer to Gymnasium from Realschule.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptschule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realschule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school)

Germany:

''In Germany, for instance, pupils study subjects like German, English, mathematics, physics, chemistry, geography, biology, arts, music, physical education, religion, history and social sciences. They are also required to study at least two foreign languages. The usual combination is English and French, although many schools offer combining English or, in some cases, Latin, with another language, most often Latin, Spanish, Ancient Greek or Russian.''

The Netherlands:

''In the Netherlands, gymnasium consists of six years, after 8 years of primary school, in which pupils study the same subjects as their German counterparts, with the addition of compulsory Ancient Greek, Latin and "KCV" ("Klassieke Culturele Vorming", Classical Cultural Education), history of the Ancient Greek and Roman culture and literature.''

Austria:

''In Austria, gymnasium consists of eight years. The usual combination is English, French and Latin, sometimes French can be swapped with another foreign language (like Spanish, Italian or Russian) or a more technical subject like Descriptive geometry or further hours of biology, physics or chemistry. Latin is almost obligatory, since it is a requirement for several studies in Austria. Also Ancient Greek is obligatory in some Austrian classes.''

Italy:

''Ginnasio students spend almost all their time studying Greek and Latin grammar, laying the bases for the "higher" and more complicated set of studies of the Liceo, such as Greek and Latin literature, Philosophy and History.''

''This meaning of a secondary school preparing for higher education at university in the German-speaking, the Nordic, the Benelux and the Baltic countries has been the same at least since the Protestant reformation in the 16th century. The first general system of schools which provided for the Gymnasia was that of Saxony, formulated in 1528. They are thus meant for the more academically-minded students, who are sifted out at about the age of 10–13. In addition to the usual curriculum, students of a gymnasium often study Latin and Ancient Greek.

Some gymnasiums provide general education, others have a specific focus. (This also differs from country to country.) The three traditional branches are:

humanities education (specialising in Classical languages, such as Latin and Greek)

modern languages (students are required to study at least three languages)

mathematical-scientific education''


According to Non-Slav's second definition of the word ''linguist'' on
Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:17 pm GMT:

<<"Linguists" can be people who studied linguistics but are monolingual. They can also be people who speak two or more languages. It's pretty much open to your own interpretation.>>

and taken into account, that the word ''speak'' is somewhat blurry and can mean several degrees of profiency (and not only in speaking but also in writing), one may conclude that several European countries (not just Germany) require their population to become ''linguists'' if they want to obtain a higher education.

Jasper Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:32 pm GMT:

<<Guest2, a topic must be loved to the point of obsession to be successfully completed at home.>>

Does it really need to reach the ''point of obsession'' just to ''successfully complete'' it at home''? Others are required to go to work every day, and these people also has to ''successfully complete'' their tasks. There might be a natural explanation for that, but it's up to you to tell us about, if you like.

<< (It will be remembered that Tom, the Bürgermeister of this forum, is "crazy" about learning English accent elimination.)>>

What does that mean? Does he want to eliminate his English accent?
Or does he want to eliminate his foreign accent if he speaks English?

BTW, why should someone want to get rid of his accent? Or, worse, aquire a special accent of a special dialect of a foreign language? Why should someone wisch to pretend that he's a native if he's not? They should go for clear standard pronunciation to facilitate communication, even if that means to retain their accents.

<<I love the topics of linguistics, neurolinguistics, forensic science, shadowing the English language, ad. nauseum., ...>>

This is dangerous, if you like eating e.g. eggs too much, you'll probably reach a point where you don't like them anymore for a long time.

<<... enough to study at home; ...>>

What does that mean? Does your university doesn't require you to be at the campus? Something like Fernuni Hagen in Germany?

<<... hard work on beloved subjects doesn't feel like work, does it?>>

I agree totally. But unfortunatly that's not the kind of work the LORD intended. Besides hard work on beloved subjects, you more likely have to do work on things you don't like or even hate. That's life. I it's not yours, you must have been very lucky.

<<I don't love the study of foreign languages to this extent. This would require the discipline of a classroom setting, which is impossible in my current life situation.>>

The study of language doesn't require classroom setting at all,
see http://www.antimoon.com/other/englishclass.htm for details.

(I offered somebody to teach him Stenography some month ago, but he refused with a similar argument. Why does everybody think that learning is only possible in classes?)

Learning a foreign language does not necessarily mean to learn how to speak. (Who really knows how Latin was pronunced in its classical period? Who needs to speak Latin or Ancient Greek nowadays? And several other dead languages you still can learn in university courses?) I started learning Turkey Turkic with an incomplete copy of a Turkic textbook, I had not the money to copy the whole book then. Admittedly, Turkey turkic sounds are quite easy for a German native speaker, but actually speaking these language is not so easy. But it wasn't my aim to be able to speak it fluently, but to learn about it's grammatical structures, about vowel harmony and agglutination. And about a non-IE language, to be honest (Jumping into another universe!). I mentioned that I attended a Turkic course, but that was a few years later. (The first two terms were quite easy, thanks to my previous knowledge learnt form that copies!)

Guest2, I should have noted that the statements I made were true for me, and for me only.

I have to love a subject to the point of obsession before I can complete it at home. However, this might not be true for others. (It's obviously not true for you.)

When learning a topic that I don't love, I require the discipline of a classroom setting to be successful. I live much too far away from the nearest university to be able to attend classes there. (It's about 16 kilometers away.)

❝What does that mean? Does he want to eliminate his English accent?
Or does he want to eliminate his foreign accent if he speaks English?

BTW, why should someone want to get rid of his accent? Or, worse, aquire a special accent of a special dialect of a foreign language? Why should someone wisch to pretend that he's a native if he's not? They should go for clear standard pronunciation to facilitate communication, even if that means to retain their accents. ❞

I apologize for the misunderstanding--my sentence structure was clumsy. Tom is a Polish national who wanted to get rid of his Polish accent, and speak in a near-native American accent; he succeeded at this endeavor to a marked degree.

Why did he pursue accent elimination? You'll have to ask him. ☺

I don't understand your point about the ''obsession at home'' thingy. But never mind, that's no concern of mine.

<<When learning a topic that I don't love, I require the discipline of a classroom setting to be successful. I live much too far away from the nearest university to be able to attend classes there. (It's about 16 kilometers away.) >>

Lucky you, if you experienced the ''discipline of a classroom setting'' at school. I got bullied for many years in the Realschule, but despite of that, I was ''successful'' in so far that my marks were good enought to go on to the Gymnasium.

I live ca. 45 km away from my university. I have to take the bus and then change to the train. In Frankfurt, I have to take the subway or the streetcar. It takes me ca. 3 hours per day to attend any course. There were times I was at the university form Monday to Frieday, ca. 3 hours in-motion time per day, the whole term, and did some job as well, which required an additional hour ride time. I did several jobs, the best of them was the tutor job I mentioned.

An accent can sound very nice.

Don't you think that Americans miss something if they're not required to learn at least one foreign language in a way it's done in many other countries?

❝I don't understand your point about the ''obsession at home'' thingy.❞

Perhaps a specific example would better illustrate the point. Let's take the subject of weight-lifting: by all accounts, it's grueling, tortuous work. If a person has enough love for weightlifting, he will meet his goals--he might even look forward to his sessions.

However, for the rest of us, weightlifting is a torture to the point of masochism, so there comes a time when we drop out and stop going to the gym completely. Who will do something they know they should do, but hates every millisecond of the training? An element of realism is requested.

I believe any kind of learning is like that, Guest2. If a person loves learning foreign languages (or accent elimination, or linguistics) enough to look forward to the sessions, he will succeed in his endeavors; if he finds the exercises tedious, boring, or grueling, he will drop out...

❝Don't you think that Americans miss something if they're not required to learn at least one foreign language in a way it's done in many other countries?❞

Yes, Guest2, I do. I wish it were a required subject in our curriculum, but it isn't.

Why do you keep addressing guest2 as Guest2?

Here's a very interesting link:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html

The author of that website seems to be very different form you, Jasper.

You still didn't get my point.

<<An element of realism is requested.>>

<<... I believe any kind of learning is like that, Guest2.>>

In life, you need not only do what you like, sometimes you are required to do what you don't like. If any kind of learning would be like that, people like you would never have learned something. For to be able to do what you like (e.g. neurolinguistics) you had to learn something (e.g. reading and writing) even if it was quite hard. That's the element of realism!

<<... if he finds the exercises tedious, boring, or grueling, he will drop out...>>

Is it really that simple? I told you I got bullied by my ''school mates'' for many years in school, causing vast privat problems, too. Some of the teachers were very disgusting. So there were massive problems beside of that the subject of teaching was tedious, boring and grueling, at least sometimes. But I didn't drop out!

You just repeat your point of view, without trying to get my points.