Spanish is not so important as latin-americans praise!

*CarloS*   Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:31 pm GMT
Hey,

First, I'm not sure wether "NINJA" is a troll or not, but I'll reply his post anyway.

Asia and Latin America HAVE A LOT TO OFFER TO EACH OTHER AND ALTHOUGH MANY DON'T KNOW IT, THEY HAVE HAD PERMANENT CONTACT SINCE REMOTE TIMES, (well, not that "remote", but after the Europeans....).

>>>I think it's absolutely not so important for Europeans to learn Spanish, at least it's not necessary in Europe. Besides the most important language-English, I consider both French and German are crucial important worldwide, because France and Germany play an important role in economy, politics, science and technology, industry and commerce.<<<

Spain has a lot of big companies... From telephone companies (like the Telefonica Group) to banks (like Santander and the BBVA Group) and car manufacturers (like SEAT). Also, many other big European companies are actually owned by Spanish companies (like Endemol). Spain also invests great amounts of money along with other European countries in scientific research and technology (like the launch of Hispasat and the construction of the Boeing A380, the World's largest passenger airplane). Anyway, other countries like China and Japan ALSO PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN ECONOMY, POLITICS, ETC... BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO LEARN JAPANESE OR CHINESE.

Germany lost all its colonies after WWII, and it didn't actually have them for a long period of time, so the German Language wasn't really imposed and it's not widely spoken anymore.

>>>Most of the developed countries' people in Europe speak German or French instead of Spanish.<<<

Spanish is the 5th language spoken in Europe. It is also the 4th most useful according to the European Union survey. http://europa.eu.int/comm/education/policies/lang/languages/index_en.html#2most%20useful

>>>And in fact, Spain is not very powerful in many ways, and Latin America are, speaking frankly, very poor developing countries.<<<

What do you mean with powerful? Spain IS "POWERFUL" IF YOU'RE SPEAKING ABOUT ECONOMY AND POLITICS. NOT ONLY IN EUROPE, BUT WORLDWIDE. Other countries in Latin America also have a lot of political and economy "power" such as Mexico, Chile, Venezuela and Brazil. In fact, Brazil hosted the Arab-South American summit this year. Latin America and the Middle East depend on each other and have a lot of trade and commerce. Since you're Asian, you must also know that China is one of our largest trading partners... In Peru's case, China IS THE SECOND TRADING PARTNER.

>>>So we can't only judge any of language's importance by population's quantities, although we know that Hispanic world has about 400,000,000 spanish speakers, it's not the key factor to estimate a language sanely and expressly.<<<

The number of speakers IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS.

>>>But in America and Latin america, Spanish is surely very important, just like the importance of French, German, and Italian in Europe.<<<

Probably MORE IMPORTANT THAN GERMAN AND ITALIAN IN EUROPE.

>>>In Japan and China, not to mention Germany and France, the economic and cultural cooperation with Italy is much more hopeful than with Spain and Latin America......<<<

As I mentioned before, CHINA IS A VERY IMPORTANT TRADE PARTNER FOR LATIN AMERICA. In fact, last year China wanted to negotiate a Free Trade Agreement with South America as a whole block, but failed. Although China could achieve a FTA with Chile and Peru has a FTA with Thailand. South Korea, Japan and Malaysia have also showed great interest in Latin America lately. Peru will host the APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) -where 47% OF THE WORLD COMMERCE OCCURS- in 2008, will this make my country more "economically powerful" NINJA?

>>>There are millions of Asians and their descendents in Latin America, from Indians in Trinidad to Japanese in Peru or Lebanese in Colombia.<<<

Yes, we have many Arab communities... Many Chinese and Japanese communities as well. Many of them came as "coolies" to work in the haciendas after slavery for African descendents was abolished. In Peru's case, it's estimated that 15% of the population has Chinese ancestry and we have Chinese food restaurants everywhere! Also, Sao Paulo has the largest settlement of Japanese people outside of Japan.
suomalainen   Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:46 pm GMT
CarloS,
a small correction: Germany lost its colonies already after WWI. The colonies have retained the last colonial language, therefore German has left little traces in Togo, Cameroon, Tanzania and Papua-New-Guinea. On the other hand, in Namibia there are probably still people who have command of German as a reminder of the German colonial power.
But in Europe German is a useful language. I have used it with people from Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Jugoslavia, Latvia, Estonia, Norway, Russia and Udmurtia.
Tiffany   Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:31 pm GMT
Why mention Brazil in relation to how powerful Spanish is? Brazilians speak Portuguese...
Guy   Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:15 pm GMT
>>Why mention Brazil in relation to how powerful Spanish is? Brazilians speak Portuguese...<<

It is predicted by scholars that portuguese will eventually make way for spanish in brasil in the not too distant future.

http://spanish.about.com/b/a/002303.htm

Quote:

No, the language of Brazil is Portuguese, or at least a variation of it. But apparently Brazilians are increasingly learning Spanish as a second language.



Quote:

La situación del español al inicio del siglo XXI en Brasil es de bonanza, de auge y de prestigio. En este momento se vive un crecimiento espectacular de la demanda de cursos de español, con todo lo que implica el proceso de enseñanza-aprendizaje de un idioma extranjero: necesidad de material impreso y sonoro, necesidad de profesorado y de organización de cursos, por citar sólo algunas de las principales áreas implicadas. A todo ello vamos a hacer referencia a continuación, pero resulta pertinente poner antes sobre la mesa una de las cuestiones clave de todo el entramado de hechos, procesos e intereses que comentamos.



You can google up more information on the matter if you like.
Tiffany   Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:22 pm GMT
Oh perhaps you are trying to refute what was said about Latin America. I'm pretty sure it was meant in the context of Spanish though.
Tiffany   Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:24 pm GMT
I did not see your post, Guy, before I posted my last comment.
Guy   Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:34 pm GMT
>>Oh perhaps you are trying to refute what was said about Latin America. I'm pretty sure it was meant in the context of Spanish though.<<

I thought the same as well. Althought I disagree that it's just Mexico, Venezuela and Brazil. Other Latin American countries also have plenty of potential besides those mentioned by Carlos.
Brennus   Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:17 pm GMT
Historybuff,

I don't want to ruin your interest in history in any way, it gets short enough shrift in our educational system as it is. However a here are few counterarguments to what you wrote that you might want to consider:

Europe was not a very comfortable place to live in the 16th and 17th centuries with all the religious strife going on and the Ottoman Turks putting on pressure from the Balkans and North Africa. So, European exploration and colonization of the new world and elsewhere was almost inevitable.

When you consider that Spain, Portugal and Holland are all small countries that had an influence on world history that was disproportionate to their sizes and populations I would say yes, the Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch were very remarkable peoples; no doubt about it.

Spain was probably the only country in the fifteenth and sixteenth century that was wealthy enough to outfit major expeditions to the new world and which also had a large enough fleet. The first British voyages to the New World under Cabot, Frobisher and Hudson were only modest successes at best that barely went beyond Newfoundland. It would still be almost another two hundred years before the British could take on Spain.
Brennus   Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:25 pm GMT
Ed,

Re: "Peru's former president Alberto Fujimori is of japanese descent."

True but keep in mind that Alberto Fujimori became president of Japan only in 1990 - that's late historically speaking; even I was already 40 years old by then. Also, most Americans don't even know who the prime minister of Canada much less the president of Peru. In fact, I've had to refresh my memory myself regarding Canada's present prime minister, Paul Martin; he's not the giant that Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chrétien were.
historybuff   Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:57 pm GMT
>>When you consider that Spain, Portugal and Holland are all small countries that had an influence on world history that was disproportionate to their sizes and populations I would say yes<<


What "you" would say is one thing. What reasonable and responsible historians state is quite another.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060194766/ref=pd_sbs_b_5/002-4108653-5728035?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

Empire : How Spain Became a World Power, 1492-1763

Quote:

He demonstrates to superb effect that this empire was in its very origins a truly multinational enterprise in which the Spanish element was one among many. This element, he suggests, was wholly-if understandably-distorted by contemporary propagandists. In reality, without Genoese bankers, expansionism into the Canary Islands (and Italy itself) would have been unworkable; without Muslim agency, Granada would not have fallen, nor Tenochtitlan without indigenous collaboration; there were Greeks, Netherlanders and at least two blacks in the party that conquered the Aztec capital.


Of course Spaniards feel indignant about this as they erroneously believe that they were wholly responsible for their "success". Like I've said previously there was a lot of good fortune involved for the way things turned out. Them being "remarkable" (whatever that means) was probably one of the least significant ingredients.
historybuff   Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:09 am GMT
An excellent review from an Amazon customer:

Quote:

...the author reveals that the Spanish Empire was built and maintained with the help of the people of many nations- that it was a true "multinational enterprise." Mr. Kamen also shows that rather than the Empire being created by Spain, Spain was created by the Empire- for, at the starting point of the book, 1492, there really was no such entity as Spain. Like several European countries of the time, such as Italy and Germany, Spain consisted of many geographical units- each with its own language and/or culture, and people felt a loyalty to that particular area rather than to the larger abstraction called Spain. Only after the Empire developed and the language of the largest geographical area, Castile, became the language of Empire did people start to think of themselves as belonging to something bigger than the particular region they lived in.

Mr. Kamen also points out that the population of Spain (which was much less than that of France or England) was never great enough to provide the quantity of soldiers needed to support the far-flung Empire. Where did this Empire come from, though? When Ferdinand of Aragon died in 1516 the thrones of Castile and Aragon passed to his grandson, the archduke Charles of Habsburg (known to us as Charles V). Charles was born in Ghent and raised in the Netherlands. In 1520 he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. Besides Spain, his responsibilities included (from his Burgundian inheritance) the Netherlands and (from his Habsburg inheritance) also Austria, Hungary, Naples, Sicily and the continent of America. So, the Empire started by inheritance rather than by conquest.

When the Empire expanded to encompass the Caribbean, Mexico, Peru, the Philippines, etc., it had to rely on native peoples, and African slaves, for manpower. The Spanish didn't have the muscle to conquer and control these vast areas and had to rely on cooperation, usually, rather than coercion. Fortunately for the conquistadors, native tribes were usually at war with one another and some of them were only too willing to form alliances with the Spanish in order to defeat powerful enemies, such as the Aztecs or Incas. Even so, the areas under Spanish control were usually not extensive, as they still didn't have enough manpower to control large regions. Tribes that were hostile to the Spanish would simply go elsewhere and the two sides would generally just stay clear of one another. These arrangements also existed in the American Southwest.

Mr. Kamen notes the irony that when the Empire started to decline in the last half of the 17th century, Spain's enemies had to be careful not to let her fall too far, lest they drag themselves down with her!
*CarloS*   Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:42 am GMT
suomalainen, you're correct. My mistake, it was in WWI.

>>>Why mention Brazil in relation to how powerful Spanish is? Brazilians speak Portuguese...<<<

I mentioned Brazil because NINJA mentioned Latin America. Besides... Brazilians are now learning Spanish (it has great demand), as Guy said.

>>>True but keep in mind that Alberto Fujimori became president of Japan only in 1990<<<

Fujimori WAS NEVER THE PRESIDENT OF JAPAN. Japan has NO president...
*CarloS*   Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:01 am GMT
>>>I thought the same as well. Althought I disagree that it's just Mexico, Venezuela and Brazil. Other Latin American countries also have plenty of potential besides those mentioned by Carlos.<<<

I mentioned the most important ones... Of course many other countries are important, but probably not as important (yet) as the ones I mentioned. Like:

Panama: "The Hub of the Americas" ("El hub de las Américas"). Not forgetting the Panama channel and Colon Free Zone.

Argentina: It's still important, but NOT as important as it was before its crisis.

Uruguay: The country that ranks 2nd in Latin America according to the World Economic Forum.

Peru: Led Economic growth in all Latin America with 4% in 2004, and still progressing.

And many more, but I'm sure they still have a long way to match the countries I mentioned in my first list.
*CarloS*   Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:26 am GMT
>>>...the author reveals that the Spanish Empire was built and maintained with the help of the people of many nations- that it was a true "multinational enterprise."<<<

True, the Spanish Empire was maintained with the wealth of the lands the Spaniards conquered (like the gold from the Inca Empire). BUT, at the beggining, the building of the Empire was financed BY THE SPANISH CROWN.

>>>Mr. Kamen also shows that rather than the Empire being created by Spain, Spain was created by the Empire- for, at the starting point of the book, 1492, there really was no such entity as Spain. Like several European countries of the time, such as Italy and Germany, Spain consisted of many geographical units- each with its own language and/or culture, and people felt a loyalty to that particular area rather than to the larger abstraction called Spain.<<<

Not true, unlike Germany and Italy, Spain had built a "Christian (Catholic) Identity" after eight centuries of Moor occupation. After the expulsion of the Moors the Kingdom of Aragon and the Kingdom of Castille united and started expanding. First, they conquered the rest of the Kingdoms in the Ibearian Peninsula (most of this Kingdoms spoke dialects very similar to Spanish, if not Spanish) and later ventured to find a new route to Asia.

>>>Only after the Empire developed and the language of the largest geographical area, Castile, became the language of Empire did people start to think of themselves as belonging to something bigger than the particular region they lived in.<<<

The language wasn't really imposed, they were all similar. Probably in those times they were considered "accents" rather than "dialects".

>>>Mr. Kamen also points out that the population of Spain (which was much less than that of France or England) was never great enough to provide the quantity of soldiers needed to support the far-flung Empire.<<<

So? You didn't need a great army (in size) if you wanted to conquer the Americas. The Inca was captured by only 13 Spaniards and the Inca had hundreds of soldiers protecting him at the time he was captured only that the Spaniards had superior technology. This happened in the rest of the Americas as well.

>>>Where did this Empire come from, though? When Ferdinand of Aragon died in 1516 the thrones of Castile and Aragon passed to his grandson, the archduke Charles of Habsburg (known to us as Charles V). Charles was born in Ghent and raised in the Netherlands. In 1520 he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. Besides Spain, his responsibilities included (from his Burgundian inheritance) the Netherlands and (from his Habsburg inheritance) also Austria, Hungary, Naples, Sicily and the continent of America. So, the Empire started by inheritance rather than by conquest.<<<

No.

>>>The Spanish didn't have the muscle to conquer and control these vast areas and had to rely on cooperation, usually, rather than coercion. Fortunately for the conquistadors, native tribes were usually at war with one another and some of them were only too willing to form alliances with the Spanish in order to defeat powerful enemies, such as the Aztecs or Incas. Even so, the areas under Spanish control were usually not extensive, as they still didn't have enough manpower to control large regions. Tribes that were hostile to the Spanish would simply go elsewhere and the two sides would generally just stay clear of one another.<<<

Again not true, the Spaniards started populating what is now Latin America after their conquest. They started dividing the territory and founding cities. The natives weren't able to resist and their power declined until it disappeared.

What TRIBES are you talking about...?
historybuff   Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:56 am GMT
@ Carlos

Those are not my words. That's a succinct summary of the contents of "Empire: How Spain Became a World Power" by an Amazon customer which is a book whose author Henry Kamen meticulously and extensively researched this period in history before releasing his final compiled thesis. I would like to know what credentials, if any, you possess to postulate on this subject?