Spanish is not so important as latin-americans praise!

Frontera   Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:34 pm GMT
Yeah, America did that. They had blacks for slaves, and the Spanish had Native Americans for slaves.
Tim   Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:36 pm GMT
<< If they transplanted their languange >>

You said that not me.


<< how can you negate that there is an affinity between the two continents? >>

I don't. Obviously there is because a fusion of two ethnic groups occurred.

<< Incidentally, there are Americans who don't know the capital of the USA, does that mean it doesn't exist? >>

Irrelevant and childish.



<< If you so choose to deny that debates over the "just colonization" of America never took place >>

I think the USA should invade Spain next. It could be justified as "just colonization" due to the lack of intelligence there. Prepare yourself to be civilized.

<< well then you are sadly doomed to permeate in that obsure and frigthening place we call ignorance. I've provided you with reputable sources, all you have to do is a little reading, yet you resist. Why? >>

All it is is biased propaganda. You do you think I can force myself in my neighbours house and tell him it's the right thing to do because he needs to educated by me? I doubt it he'll be pleased and accept it.

<< Or, that the Salem with hunts witch burned as many people as the Inquistion, in more "enlightened" times is justifiable? >>

Finally an admission that Spain was committed atrocities. That wasn't so hard.


<< Are you really better informed that than all the modern historians on all sides of the atlantic and to the north and south of the equator. Perhaps you should write a book on ethnocentrism and its wishful bliss? Here are some erudite works you may be interested in when you decide you can handle the truth: >>

Spain was what it was. It wasn't great but it wasn't evil either. But I think it incredibly patronizing and condescending to Native Americans to say that it was GOOD that millions of their people were killed, their knowledge and culture destroyed (or a lot of it anyway) and claim that the spanish arrival were a blessing to them. We must deal with the truth and not fantasy, no matter how unpleasant it is.
Tim   Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:46 pm GMT
<<At least the spanish didnt exterminate all the native people like the americans did.So compared to you the spanish were "angels".>>

They didn't exteminate them not because the Spanish were kind but because Native Americans were resilient and had a strong will to surive. Not enough is given to them.

<< Yeah, America did that. They had blacks for slaves, and the Spanish had Native Americans for slaves. >>

That's true. From very early on the race line was blurred and not so clear due to the birth of a new ethnic group the mestizo. Not all Native Americans were enslaved as there wasn't a clear cut line dividing all "Indians" and mestizos. Some mestizos and even "Indians" were in relatively well off. And slavery didn't last long and abolished pretty quickly, so is evident that I don't think the spanish were monsters. But they were far from saints either.
Frontera   Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:58 pm GMT
Sorry, it just I don't always see slaves wearing chains on their feet. But I didn't know that, thanks.
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:32 am GMT
Tim u bore me and you know very little of history. Incidentally, before you invade Spain, you might want to look over your shoulder at all your true enemys, and they are many. You pompous asshole. If the US lasts as long as Spain did you will be in good shape. You only need another 300 years to do that. And nobody, certainly not has exonerated or denied that the Spaniards commited atrosties, but more "modern and enlightened" cultures have committed atrocities that make the Spanish look like the Virgen Mary you selfrightous ingnoraneous. You and your one stupid book reference. How old are you, like two?
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:34 am GMT
Tim,
lmao, before u invade spain u better secure our southern border as I think the USA is under an invasion of Mexicans you inbecile.
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:37 am GMT
<They didn't exteminate them not because the Spanish were kind but because Native Americans were resilient and had a strong will to surive. Not enough is given to them.>
They didn't eliminate them because the Spanish Crown protected them you idiot. READ A BOOK OR TWO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The more you say the more u reveal your stupidity and racist mentality, please desist. Incidentally, I didn't get a response about Heroshima, cat got your tongue, you hypocrite?
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:43 am GMT
Frontera,
Actually under Spanish Law the Indians were considered free and slavery was never condoned under the Spanish Crown. It did nonetheless exist because it was practised by private endevours. And the indians were certainly exploited, but it is important to note that the Spanish Crown did what it could to abolish these practices. Moreover, it was the Dutch and English, amongst others, that continued slavery well into the XX century. By this time is had been abolished for over 250 years in Spanish teritories. Go back to page "14" in the forum to read more on this subject.
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:51 am GMT
Tim,
<From very early on the race line was blurred and not so clear due to the birth of a new ethnic group the mestizo. Not all Native Americans were enslaved as there wasn't a clear cut line dividing all "Indians" and mestizos.>
If the Spanish screwed the Indians to create the mesizo then how can you claim we anihlated them? Morever, the indian population in South America has acually increased not decreased over the years. Mexicans have 70% or more indian blood, not Spanish. This is a stark contrast to the extermination in North America. Where they have lost everything and are reduced to reservations or rather concentration camps!
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:58 am GMT
<I think the USA should invade Spain next. It could be justified as "just colonization" due to the lack of intelligence there. Prepare yourself to be civilized. >

While your ancestors were rolling in the mud, mine were bathing with the Romans. While your ancestors were learning to count on their fingers mine your conquering europe. While your ancestors were living like animals in caves, mine were living in castles. While your ancestors were still sucking their thumbs, mine were translation Aristotle from arabic to Latin. When your ancestors saw the ruins of Rome they thought they were built by giants becasue they still couldn't pitch a tent. We certainly don't need the US to be civilized. We gave the world the likes of Seneca, Tiberius, Cervantes, Picasso, Columbus, Miro, ad finitum. We gave the world its first novel, its first constitution in 1812, and the discovery of America. We really don't need you to be civilized.
Ruben   Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:30 am GMT
Timmy got OWNED lmfao!
Tim   Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:56 am GMT
<<Tim u bore me and you know very little of history.>>

As opposed to your selective history? This comment is more of reflection on you.

<<Incidentally, before you invade Spain, you might want to look over your shoulder at all your true enemys, and they are many. You pompous asshole.>>

You are the one arguing for “just colonization”. There is no such thing, that has been my stance from the outset.

<<but more "modern and enlightened" cultures have committed atrocities that make the Spanish look like the Virgen Mary you selfrightous ingnoraneous.>>

Subjective.

<<They didn't eliminate them because the Spanish Crown protected them you idiot. READ A BOOK OR TWO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>

Not all “Indians” needed protection as the territory was vast and there were many “Indians” that weren’t part of the criollo/mestizo population for a long time. Indians weren’t little animals that needed the protection and approval of Europeans like are you patronizingly suggesting. They also played a major role in shaping what was to become Mexico.

<<The more you say the more u reveal your stupidity and racist mentality, please desist.>>

The only person showing their true colours is you with your racist rhetoric. That you can’t see that speaks volume of how blinded you are by your bigotry.


<<Actually under Spanish Law the Indians were considered free and slavery was never condoned under the Spanish Crown. It did nonetheless exist because it was practised by private endevours. And the indians were certainly exploited, but it is important to note that the Spanish Crown did what it could to abolish these practices. Moreover, it was the Dutch and English, amongst others, that continued slavery well into the XX century. By this time is had been abolished for over 250 years in Spanish teritories. Go back to page "14" in the forum to read more on this subject.>>

I actually agreed with this and is evidence that I don’t have an agenda. Not all “Indians” were enslaved, many were never part of the “latinized” community for centuries. In any event “Indian” slavery was more like serfdom than anything else and even other “Indians” and mestizos had their own “slaves”. In this regard it wasn’t as bad as African slavery that happened in the USA.

<<If the Spanish screwed the Indians to create the mesizo then how can you claim we anihlated them? >>

You really have trouble reading the simplest sentence. I haven’t used the word “annihilated” at all. It’s all in your imagination. Of course when someone makes allies with another they’re not going to annihilate them. But other Native Americans were slaughtered, with the help of other Native Americans, there is no denying it. And eventually Europeans took Native Americans wives and married them and created a new “breed” of people.

<<While your ancestors were rolling in the mud, mine were bathing with the Romans. While your ancestors were learning to count on their fingers mine your conquering europe. While your ancestors were living like animals in caves, mine were living in castles. While your ancestors were still sucking their thumbs, mine were translation Aristotle from arabic to Latin. When your ancestors saw the ruins of Rome they thought they were built by giants becasue they still couldn't pitch a tent. We certainly don't need the US to be civilized. We gave the world the likes of Seneca, Tiberius, Cervantes, Picasso, Columbus, Miro, ad finitum. We gave the world its first novel, its first constitution in 1812, and the discovery of America. We really don't need you to be civilized.>>

Another childish rant. I shouldn’t have expected anything else.

<<Timmy got OWNED lmfao!>>

You must be his boyfriend.
Raúl   Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:16 am GMT
Tim this is the stupid book you rely on? Just as I thought, you are a racist.
Reviews:
The Black Legend Lives., December 10, 2003
Reviewer: - See all my reviews
This book is completely written on a massive negativity scale. I refuse to buy Henry Kamen's books on spanish history. This book is not worthy to be put in my library. I went to the local library and read it before I would buy it. I felt depressed and resentful after reading it. He only gives a partial explanation based on facts but unfortunately the way it is written it is one dimensional and one sided.
Not enough credit is given to Castille and the massive enterprise she took in creating a worldwide empire. Everything Castille did was for the glory of Spain. Other European countries faced the same problems as Spain if not worse. Spain made good sense in using all the resources at her possesion in keeping her empire in check and in which other countries also did in creating their own empires. There is hardly anything positive that the author refers in writing this book. It is his own personal opinion in injecting a negative atmosphere throughout the book. This author is not considered an "Hispanista" and it shows on his writing so subjectively on this matter.

You won't learn much about the economic, social, religious, or political motives for the empire; Mr Kamen is out to prove his thesis and not much else. Nor does he give a lot of attention simply to narrating what happened--the Dutch revolt goes unmentioned (unless you count "fighting in the Netherlands"); again, that detracts from The Thesis.