Are American true native speakers of English?

Uriel   Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:36 am GMT
Texas is hardly a dominant state in the US, so so much for that analogy.;P

I actually thought the UK was very foreign, and didn't let the common language fool me one bit. And yes, I had trouble being understood when I asked for a "glassa wadder", as you would hear it. Which amused me no end, although I didn't let my waitress know it.

Then again, I've been in parts of the US that felt pretty foreign, too. Hell, I now live in a part that most other Americans forget is attached to the rest of the country! So I suppose I can't complain....

I, too, have let my passport lapse for years at a time when I didn't need it, and so joined the ranks of "insular Americans who never leave their cocoons". Given that I was an army brat and had lived on three continents by the time I was fifteen, I don't feel too bad....why pay the $70 until you really need it again?
Jago   Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:13 pm GMT
As mentioned before, It is highly offensive to call someone English if they are Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Irish or Manx. Just because England holds the majority of the British population does not mean that people have the right to tell the other occupants of the British Isles what nationality they are.
The ignorance can be tolerated because most people will accept an explanation but when you're basicaly trying TELL us all that we are English we will of course become angry.
Amabo   Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:46 pm GMT
The US is a large country that spans a continent and has a population of about 300 million.

The Uk is a small European country confined to one island and part of another; it has a population of about 60 million.

That's why the percentage of its citizens holding passports is so much higher.
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:45 pm GMT
***Except England is the dominant nation, so they deserve to have the country named after them***

What a travesty of justice that would be and no mistake! ;-)

England can only be considered "the dominant nation" in the sense that it physically covers the largest area of the main island of Great Britain*, has the largest population by far of the four constituent nations (Eng/Sco/Wal/NI) - 84% of the UK total with an English population per sq km density being among the highest in the world, contains the capital city of the country as a whole, one of the world's prime cities globally, and has the highest number of metropolitan areas within its borders.

More importantly bearing in mind the nature of this Forum, England is, of course, the birthplace of the English Language, it is it's historical "home" as of right, and it spent its early formative years growing up and steadily developing, stage by stage, down there in England's verdant pasturelands.

In time the influence of English spread into all three of the other countries, and in time it became the official Language here as well, with our own original "native" tongues being consigned to the fringes of the north and west so to speak, but even here English is of prime importance and significance, with Gaelic and Welsh now very much reduced to "minority status" and now used solely in a social sense by a comparatively small number of people - spoken, or understood, by less than 5% here in Scotland, and about 20%, or even less, down in Wales. The use and comprehension of English is universal of course.


England is the seat of national Government, the seat of UK commerce and finance and the hub of so much of the UK's social and entertainment scene and probably a fair number of other things as well - so it's only in all those things that England can be considered "dominant"......so.....ummmm......that's quite a lot of things really, isn't it? Oh...one more thing....England is the source of a lot of Scotland's financing....I nearly forgot that...now that really is important.

So I suppose England really is the dominant guy! What the hell......who cares.....we still beat the crap out of them at Rugby.....and after all, they DID give us this presciously sublime Language we now all love and cherish.

Much as I like going down to England I also love the sight of that "Welcome to Scotland" sign on the way back again - when I go by road, of course.....from the train we just have to guess where the border is...somewhere between Berwick-upon-Tweed (Eng) and Eyemouth (Sco). I don't give a toss about English "dominance" then. ;-)

I reckon that the UK would naturally appear "foreign" to any visitor to these shores, no matter where in the world they come from, even from any other English speaking country. It is foreign to them, naturally. The fact that we speak English, too, makes no difference. Each country is unique in its own right, however similar the cultures or landscape or character.

The issue of passports......it's natural for the UK to have a very high rate of passport ownership.....the same applies to every other European country. We are all so very close to each other, and as far as the UK is concerned it is essential for Brits to hold a passport even if they only want to hop on a ferry across to Calais or Boulogne or Zeebrugge, or any port just across the Channel, load up with duty free, and nip back the few miles back to England. Even though you don't need to show your passport when landing in France or Belgium or the Netherlands (all fellow EU countries) - or further afield, such as Spain or Portugal - I have never been asked to show my passport when arriving at Malaga, Spain - the UK Border Agency absolutely insists that you have your passport examined when arriving back home in the UK again, even if you are a UK citizen.

UK Border controls are infinitely more stringent than those across the Channel or North Sea or Bay of Biscay, for a variety of reasons. We are an island nation, for one thing, as has been pointed out in another post in this thread. Apart from the UK Border agency the UK Revenue and Customs Agency also keeps tight control on our coastline and all points of entry....they've been keeping watch ever since the early days of smuggling and piracy and all that kind of stuff which is quite romantic when you think of those boats landing on a beach of a small Cornish cove in the dead of night and containing a cargo of illicit goods brought in from "foreign parts"....shades of Witchfinder General an Captain Hook and the Pirates of Penzance.
Jago   Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:53 pm GMT
<<and after all, they DID give us this presciously sublime Language we now all love and cherish.[...]Much as I like going down to England I also love the sight of that "Welcome to Scotland" sign on the way back again>>

Despite the love of the language we now speak, don't you just feel that extra bit special when you see one of our Celtic languages on the border signs?
"ceud mile failte" should give you that warm, feeling of pride, more so than any English sign could!?

I work in England and Live in Cornwall. I get the same feeling on my way back home, seeing "Kernow a'gas dynergh".
I used to Live in Wales and even had the same feeling seeing "Croeso, i Gymru".
My name   Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:07 pm GMT
"In time the influence of English spread into all three of the other countries, and in time it became the official Language here as well, with our own original "native" tongues being consigned to the fringes of the north and west so to speak, but even here English is of prime importance and significance, with Gaelic and Welsh now very much reduced to "minority status" and now used solely in a social sense by a comparatively small number of people - spoken, or understood, by less than 5% here in Scotland, and about 20%, or even less, down in Wales. The use and comprehension of English is universal of course. "

That is something to be bemoaned, not celebrated.
vin blanc   Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:04 pm GMT
"How do Americans sound to British in this regard? Do they sound like "true" native speakers but with accent or more like foreigners who are not native speakers? "

It's not just English spoken with a different accent, there's enough differences to earn it's status as a seperate dialect, rather than English spoken in America as it might have been in first few centuries after the British colonised the Eastern seaboard.
Brad Lewis   Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:53 pm GMT
American English is not a separate dialect to the more standard versions of British English. It's. the. same. damn. language. Except chips are called "crisps". Big deal.

A different dialect is something entirely else... say Dutch and English speakers intermingled, the population became isolated, and a new style of English developed that looked similiar but had different fundementals than standard English or Dutch.

British v. American English is the difference of a few letters, a few words, and the cultural approaches towards communication (British preferring understatement, irony, self-deprecation, etc., and Americans preferring simple, straightforward, and efficient styles).

People throw the word "dialect" around way too carelessly.
Brad Lewis   Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:00 pm GMT
The English that was exported to the US in the 17th century is as modern as the English today, except the accents were different and a few words were different (though those words can still be found in certain regions of the UK today). Sorry guys, British and American English are 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
identical; perhaps disappointing to those who want to separate themselves from each other.

The cultural differences between communication styles is what gets people messed up, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with dialects.
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:37 pm GMT
Yes, Jago - I always feel that wee bit special when I see the Celtic names and words on border signs between our individual constituent nations - but all the border signs on the Scotland/England border are in English only....far, far away from the Gallic speaking areas of Scotland. All we have are "Welcome to Scotland" on one side and on the other "Welcome to England".

I do appreciate the bilingual signs on the England/Wales border - and because of that they are mostly quite massive - huge things with "Croeso i Cymru" at the top and "Welcome to Wales" below - or sometimes two separate signs for each Language. This clearly indicates the much wider use of Welsh in Wales than Gallic (or Gaelic if your prefer) here in Scotland - you have to go up to the north and north west of Scotland to see the Gallic names and signs.

The border crossing I use the most when driving between Scotland and England is the one on the A68 at Carter Bar, high up in the Cheviot Hills, pretty wild and open country with fantastic views across both countries from the border post where they usually have a piper playing in full Scottish regalia. He stands by the big rock with the "Scotland" sign on it, just a step inside England, with Scotland just on the other side of the rock.

He appears to entertaining a group of Americans in this clip but he's well used to all that...he must be one of the most photographed guy in Scotland - well, just a footstep outside of Scotland in this case.

The English never seem to have one of their guys doing something similar on the other side of the border stone! Maybe they can't think of something suitable for him to wear that would clearly represent an image of England. Any ideas? A morris dancer with big flowery hat and with jingly bells around his knees and playing Lord of the Dance on an accordion?

What a cacophony that would be - bagpipes on one side of that stone and an accordion on the other!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OBXfglajoU
ken wentworth   Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:59 am GMT
<<Sorry guys, British and American English are 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% identical; perhaps disappointing to those who want to separate themselves from each other.
>>

That's hard to believe, since we've had links at Antimoon to YouTube videos that show UK English (from Scotland) that 's 99% unintelligible to some Americans.
John   Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:00 am GMT
"That's hard to believe, since we've had links at Antimoon to YouTube videos that show UK English (from Scotland) that 's 99% unintelligible to some Americans. "

As they are to some Brits as well.
Klingon   Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:22 am GMT
Trainspotting was shown with subtitles.
Harry Potter is translated into American./ If an American child saw ''fish and chips'' they would be puzzled. I say: dubble'em all ;)

Chips and fries ain't the same thing, ya know?
Even the French know this ;)
American   Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:26 am GMT
>> If an American child saw ''fish and chips'' they would be puzzled. I say: dubble'em all ;) <<

Lol. You're joking right? Even though we normally use the word "fries", we always say "Fish and Chips". Some fast-food restaurants serve exclusively fish and chips. In fact I just ordered "fish and chips" for lunch today.
ulaz   Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:31 am GMT
<<Harry Potter is translated into American./ If an American child saw ''fish and chips'' they would be puzzled. I say: dubble'em all ;)

Chips and fries ain't the same thing, ya know?
Even the French know this ;) >>


Sorry but a couple of different words doesn't make a dialect. So kids don't recognise a word? So what? Does that make it a different dialect? Pick up a dictionary and you won't know half the words or know how to use them but they're still English whether they puzzle you or not... ... What about all of the subdialects that exist within a dialect, they are surely more different from the standard than any variation which might exist between various dialects of English. Think of drug slang or even netspeak "lolzor i pwnzored j00 with ma l33t skillaz, n00bzor". Surely that's more different to standard American, than Standard American is from Standard English.