Are American true native speakers of English?

Kev   Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:49 am GMT
Most people wouldn't know what a dialect is if it came up and bit them.
Damian in Edinburgh   Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:17 am GMT
***But for the most part, English speakers have no trouble understanding one another***

Mmmm....I wonder! Bill Bryson, your admirable fellow countryman (from Iowa, USA but now happiy ensconced with his Sassenach (English) wife in the depths of the Norfolk countryside of East Angia, England) had massive problems in various parts of the UK prior to writing is book "Notes from a Small Island" - that's us, folks!

He admitted to being totally lost trying to decipher the convesation of a group of guys in a pub in Glasgow, here Scotland of course - according to Bryson they may well have been speaking Martian for all he knew. In true Glaswegian style all the blokes in the pub were more than happy to chat with him in a typically friendly and open manner, but sadly there were no English/Martian phrasebooks close at hand, so when one man leaned across to him and said: "Hae ya nae hook ma dooky?" Bryson was completely lost.

Another bloke then said: "He'll nae be doon a mooning" then a third man asked him: "D'ye hae a hoo and a poo?"

This circus went on for some time while Bryson began to wish he'd studied Martian in school back home in Iowa, especially when the barman intervened by directing a comment to these local guys: "Fuckin muckle fucket in the fuckin muckle! A hae the noo!"

I don't think it's absolutely guaranteed that every speaker of the English Language can fully comprehend the speech of all other English speakers in various parts of the ESW.

Heavens above! - here in the UK some people from one part of the country encounter problems fully understanding some people from another region.

When I was in Cardiff (Wales) I was stopped by a young couple who obviously wanted some directions.....I must have looked local, or looked as if I knew my way around the city centre with great ease and confidence although it was my first time ever in the Welsh capital city.

The guy asked me a question and I began to feel stupid as I had to ask him to repeat himself at least a couple of times. Finally I shrugged and admitted I didn't know what the blue blazes he was asking, and then the girl intervened and then it suddenly dawned on me what they were looking for. Translated into basic English the guy had asked me for directions to Waterstones book store.

I had only just come out of that very same bookshop myself and as it was only just around the corner I was very happy to oblige by telling them where it was.

"I'm sorry I misunderstod," I said to the guy who was grinning like a Cheshire cat faced with a bowl of cream - in typically friendly (South) Welsh style. "I'm a visitor to Cardiff".

"I can tell from your Scottish accent," the girl said, also smiling at me. "Don't worry about it - I understand!" and looking across at her boyfriend she said: "He comes from Pontypridd!"*

I took that as some kind of explanation.

*Pronounced as "PONT-uh-preeth" - with the "th" bit the same as the "th" in the definite article "the"....and the "pont" bit meaning a bridge in Welsh, as in some other Languages. No wonder the Welsh are supposed to find it easier to learn foreign Languages than do the English, and are certainly more adept at correct pronunciation.
Bob   Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:28 am GMT
>>"Hae ya nae hook ma dooky?" Bryson was completely lost.

Another bloke then said: "He'll nae be doon a mooning" then a third man asked him: "D'ye hae a hoo and a poo?" <<

See, that would grate on me after some time... with the hosts putting on a charade like that. It's all right for a while but when it goes on and on, it's no longer amusing. They obviously do that to show off or stand out as the "esoteric locals", thinking it might impress their guest. But it's just annoying, seeing it laboured. I'm sure I wouldn't understand them either but I would expect behaviour like that at the local drinking hole.

It's not much different to the "netspeak" environment mentioned above.

Sure, there's the odd person who might be a little hard to understand at first but it doesn't take long to gain a mutual rapport once we take our audience into consideration. Intelligibility isn't normally a problem when people shake off their cultural ties and realise there's a bigger world beyond their habitat.
HUHRG   Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:31 pm GMT
So what some variations of British English are hard to understand? Americans have trouble understanding other Americans all the time; I'm from the New York area, you think people from Alabama can understand me? Hell no.

Does that mean we speak a different dialect? Absolutely not. Accents are not dialects. Maybe those crazy British things like Cockney can be called a dialect, but it's then as much a dialect to British RP to American Standard, because British RP is just as easy to understand as regular, plain ole' American English.

People make way too much hay over British v. American English. It's the same language. It has the same origins and structure. They both derive from the same strain of modern English. Accents mean absolutely nothing in this equation... once the structure changes, there we go.
Travis   Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:12 pm GMT
The main thing here is that the variation between dialects within both English English and, to a lesser extent, North American English is far greater than the variation between Received Pronunciation and General American, which is quite small in reality. Yet at the same time that is not to say that RP and GA are not distinct language varieties (I would not call them dialects as they are not really tied to particular locations today); they are definitely distinct, having non-negligible differences in phonology and notable points of variation with respect to uage, as much as the distance between the two is not nearly as great as some would think it is.
Uriel   Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:35 am GMT
<<Brit response: Like ex....very, very ex.... very, very rhoticised colonials! ;-)>>

Hey, you should be rhotic, too, Damian.

Saw your compatriot Gerry Butler back to back in the Phantom of the Opera and 300 the other night .... Whew. I think I ovulated.

He says he goes by Gerry because he hates how Americans say "Gerard". (????) How the hell would YOU say it?
say it   Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:16 am GMT
I'm not sure how Americans pronounce it but I hate how certain Australians and Brits pronounce "Gerard" as "Jeh-rid".

It's "Juh-rahd"! (or Juh-rard for the rhoticly-inclined) where the last syllable more closely resembles the intended French pronunciation.
Hans   Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:34 am GMT
....they are definitely distinct, having non-negligible differences in phonology and notable points of variation with respect to uage, as much as the distance between the two is not nearly as great as some would think it is.


What you are saying is sacrilege! Everyone knows "American" is a separate language unto itself!


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=4Cg&q=%22%C3%9Cbersetzt+aus+dem+Amerikanischen%22&btnG=Search
Jago   Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:54 pm GMT
>>He says he goes by Gerry because he hates how Americans say "Gerard". (????) How the hell would YOU say it?<<

"Jeh-rard" has two syllables in BE. I think you guys pronounce it with one syllable don't you? "J-rard".

>>I'm not sure how Americans pronounce it but I hate how certain Australians and Brits pronounce "Gerard" as "Jeh-rid"<<

I've never heard an Aussie or fellow Brit pronounce it that way.
BNJBFNB   Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:08 pm GMT
Gerard as Jeh-rid? Are you sure they're not saying Jarrod?
Caspian   Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:15 pm GMT
say it   Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:46 pm GMT
>>I've never heard an Aussie or fellow Brit pronounce it that way<<
>>Gerard as Jeh-rid? Are you sure they're not saying Jarrod? <<

There was a fatty on Australia's "Biggest Loser" (TV show)... His name was definitely spelt "Gerard" according to the tag he was wearing, but most of the others on the show would call him Jeh-rid.
Damian in Edinburgh   Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:30 pm GMT
Gerard Butler (OK - Gerry) is not the only Brit who *hates* the way Americans pronounce Gerard, or any other similar name, such as Bernard! The American version makes us cringe! It really does, especially when combined with the rhoticism. It's awful!

The stress should be on the first syllable - strongly sounded, while the second syllable is a very weak affair...something ike a simple "uhd"....or more correctll like "GEH-rud" or "BUH-nud" although we Scots do sound the "r" quite strongly but not in a rhotic way.

I can well understand why GEH-rud insists on being called Gerry when he is over in America. Although his main home is now in London - away from his beloved Scotland (he claims to be happiest and most tranquil in body and mind when he is trudging through the wilds of the bonnie Scottish Highlands - he also has pads in New York and Los Angeles, and seems to to appear more on American TV than he does on UK TV.

He's 40 years old this year so he's pushing it a wee bit now! - but there you go and as this clip shows he is well fit. A fit Scot.

Born in Glasgow in 1969. Went into law on leaving uni and worked with a legal firm here in Edinburgh for two years, but as we know he changed direction and we can see where he is now.

He is very secretive about his private life. Is decidedly single.....who can blame him in today's marital market... Has never really been seen to have a regular girlfriend or seen actually dating one.....his truly well fit as I said...and no! - he quite emphatically maintains that he isn't! ;-) So ovulate away, Uriel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aCYUHc6UUg
Uriel   Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:41 am GMT
Well, that makes him only a few years older than me, as I'm copyright 1972. Usually I prefer younger men (five year rule!), but I can be talked into making the occasional exception -- I'm an equal opportunity employer.;P That man can work a cape. And sadly, even with his face half fucked up, he was still TEN times hotter than the other guy in that little love triangle -- what the hell was she thinking? A la verga!

Americans say Gerard as Jer-RARD. It's an inherently ugly name, as far as I'm concerned, and that's not just a by-product of the fact that we have mastered the art of pronouncing the 18th letter of the alphabet in its full beauty. If you want to be called "GEH-rud" than you might want to look into respelling it as Jared -- which we DO pronounce that way. But around here, if you insist on putting two R's in your name, you're gonna GET two R's.....

I didn't notice any Scottish accent on him in Phantom, 'cause I think he was faking straight English, but it did creep in when he was singing -- sort of the reverse of the idea that singing flattens out most accents.
say it   Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:49 am GMT
>>"Jeh-rard" has two syllables in BE.<<
>>Gerard as Jeh-rid? Are you sure they're not saying Jarrod? <<
>>I've never heard an Aussie or fellow Brit pronounce it that way<<

Case in point on the dreadful "alternate" pronunciation; testimonial from a Brit:

>>The stress should be on the first syllable - strongly sounded, while the second syllable is a very weak affair...something ike a simple "uhd"....or more correctll like "GEH-rud"<<

Some Aussies have caught this Geh-rud (or Jeh-rid as I wrote) bug too which would be a recent phenomenon as I had never heard it either until reality television shows made it big.