The Assumption, By Very Good Non Native English Speakers

Eddie   Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:45 am GMT
Many very good (fluent) non native English Speakers assume that there is little more to learn about English and they can easily compete with native speakers in debates that are held in English. Just look at some of the posts in the forums here. There are also native speakers of English who have been to university and end up working with word-smiths (spin doctors). Some of these word-smiths have the ability to make native speakers of English think that they don't know English, and some of the word-smiths use these abilities on people. What do you have to add to this?
repugnant   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:10 am GMT
Can you give me an example of what exactly a word-smith is and what they do?
LL   Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:12 am GMT
I would look in the back of the magazine called "The Atlantic" for wordsmithing and examples.
Robin Michael   Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:06 pm GMT
Word Smith is a little bit of a clumsy word. It is the sort of word that you can use once or twice but no more.

The more common alternative is 'Spin Doctor' although it is usually used in a disparaging way.

Another way of putting things is to say that someone could do with some good PR: Public Relations.

At one time all the problems of the Government were described in terms of Good or Bad PR.

"Don't let the buggers get you down".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/24/newsid_2519000/2519201.stm

"not a hanging offence".

Poor PR is reason enough to resign.

"It is understood Conservative backbenchers had become restless at the way the embattled minister was becoming a distraction from the work of government, and many were pleased at his decision to step down."
Eddie   Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:20 am GMT
A word-smith is someone who can be called upon to defend the the indefencible (or almost indefencible) through his or her writings. I don't find the word (word-smith) clumsy and it can be used over and over again.
I agree that an alternative is 'Spin Doctor'.
ESB   Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:37 am GMT
I could write a lot on this topic, but I'll try to keep it brief.

Basically, the answer is NO, an emphatic no. Although English is an international language, it has surprisingly many nuances that elude a lot of people who are not native speakers. I urge you to read something like the New York Times and ask yourself if you can achieve the same level of clarity, flow, and usage, before you can claim to be an expert who can compete with native-born speakers of English.

The other facet is the accent. Many people here will disagree, but if you want to be respected and accepted, your accent needs to be native (American or British). Very hard to achieve for most foreign-born people. Very often, what masquerades as their arrogance ("I can compete with native speakers") is actually self-loathing. Just my humble opinion, and observation.
br   Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:43 am GMT
North American and British dialects aren't the only ones. What about Australian and New Zealand and even some South African accents. Why does everyone tend to overlook them? They're just as good as any other variety of English.
Robin Michael   Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:40 am GMT
Yes, I would agree with the above comments. That in reality, competiting in Debates is not simply a question of having good English. The problem is, that people play dirty. They use tricks to gain an advantage.

The most obvious tricks are to change accent or register. If someone can speak very good formal English, an antagonist can speak colloquial English. There are all sorts of parody and irony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygToBqK60XU

Paddy and Keith do Dirty Dancing - Let's Dance for Comic Relief - BBC One

At some level, you have to accept that you are who you are. There is no point in pretending to be someone else.

There is a rather rude expression 'Wog': Westernised Oriental Person

That is what I though it meant anyway. The other person is despised because although they are educated, speak good English etc, they are still from a despised group of people.

I think that British society in general has become more liberal and less repressive. I would find it very difficult to wear 'red trousers'. Yet I remember seeing a Nigerian who wore red trousers. If you stand out because you are black, it hardly matters what you wear.
Robin Michael   Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:54 am GMT
Bullshit: Some of these word-smiths have the ability to make native speakers of English think that they don't know English.


Native speakers might be primitive and inarticulate, but that does not mean that they cannot determine their own self interest. So one way they can reduce complex arguments to the sort of language that they understand is to say "Bullshit!"

An old fashioned alternative was to say, 'this is just flannel', or 'woffle' - in other words: Words without meaning that are simply used for effect.

woffle (spelt 'waffle')

-To talk endlessly

flannel
Noun
1. Brit a small piece of towelling cloth used to wash the face
2. a soft light woollen fabric used for clothing
3. flannels trousers made of flannel
4. Brit informal evasive talk that avoids giving any commitment or direct answer
Verb
[-nelling, -nelled] or US [-neling, -neled]
Brit informal to flatter or talk evasively [Welsh gwlân wool]

"to pull the wool over someone's eyes"

waffle
n.
A light crisp battercake baked in a waffle iron.

[Dutch wafel, from Middle Dutch wfel; see webh- in Indo-European roots.]

waf·fle Informal


To speak or write evasively.
v.tr.

To speak, write, or act evasively about.

n.
Evasive or vague speech or writing.
Robin Michael   Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:00 am GMT
In the topic 'sexual imagery in English literature', Uriel wrote the following piece:

Question: Is it 'waffle' (Bullshit) or is it very clever?

I think your poet is really playing with the denotations and connotations. Yes, the imagery is very sexual, and the pen in his hand is very phallic. But it's also really meant to be just a pen, and the way THAT imagery shifts back and forth in your mind as you read is completely brilliant. The sexual imagery is a metaphor not for masturbation, as it sounds like on the first read-through, but for the sense that the author has that his penchant for writing is inherently less manly and virile than the physical labor his forefathers practiced. He is content with it, but he is also well aware that they would probably look down on it as an effete way to make a living. So when you read it the first time, you get the literal meaning. When you read it the second time, you see the very obvious sexual imagery, and interpret the literal imagery as actually being a metaphor for sexuality. And then when you read it a third time, you see that it's the sexualized imagery that is the metaphor for what really is a poem about the relationship between these two ways of life -- physical labor versus cerebral pursuits -- and you're back to the literal meaning, but enriched with this layer of social analysis. I ain't much for poetry, but that's a poet at the top of his game, if he can juxtapose so many layers of meaning and understanding into one passage!
Robin Michael   Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:23 pm GMT
If you look at how World Leader's speak English, you will notice that they do not on the whole engage in debates. Typically, they will use a translator, to give them an edge in negotiations. Occasionally, they will surprise everyone by making an off-the-cuff remark in English.

I am not a huge fan of President Putin but he is somebody that people listen to closely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiFAeluRtao
Robin Michael   Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:30 pm GMT
Full version of Putin speech (2014 Winter Olympics)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aNo3DxWaW4


I had to double check to see whether this was a spoof speech.
eddie   Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:03 am GMT
Robin Michael said:

<< Bullshit: Some of these word-smiths have the ability to make native speakers of English think that they don't know English. >>

It may seem very far fetched, but it isn't "bullshit" as you call it. A lot of time and effort would be needed to put forward a good case to demonstrate that it isn't false.

Note that there is an implicit "many" between 'make' and 'native'.
Robin Michael   Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:18 am GMT
<< Bullshit: Some of these word-smiths have the ability to make native speakers of English think that they don't know English. >>

Michael Schumacher

I think that the way that Michael Schumacher speaks English is very impressive. He makes David Coulthart's English sound very poor.

I have seen a BBC Website on the English Language in which they correct Michael Schumacher's English.

However good Michael Schmacher is, he is not going to make "native speakers of English think that they don't know English". After all, he is copying 'native speakers of English'.

If Michael Schmacher is able to present better arguments in English, than his opponents, that is one thing. But to suggest that his use of English, is so sophisicated that he can run rings round native speakers, through his clever use of English, is something else.

Of course, one of the reasons why David Coulthart's English is hard to follow, is that he is Scottish.

Both were Formula One Motor Racing Drivers.
Robin Michael   Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:37 am GMT
Can you understand David Coulthard in this interview?

Can you pronounce his surname?

What was it he said?

What was he going on about?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6696423100565827633