Why are Chinese characters still used?

Mo Shui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:02 am GMT
CANadian,

<<Here's another idiot who is blinded by ethnic pride. >>

No, I'm not blinded by ethnic pride. I think you are. And I'm not like you. I won't call you an idiot. I understand that most idiots are prone to compulsive psychological projection.

<<the Chinese characters, which could be really arbitrary and random at times">>

You know what? Reading your long posts made me sleepy. It's not your fault though -- it's the monotonous repetition of those 26 English letters.

Do you know why my English still sxcks despite the tremendous amount of time and effort I have put into it? It's the 'arbitrary and random' combination of syllables to form a word or concept.

The difficulty in learning thousands of Chinese characters is nothing compared to the agony of memorizing thousands of English words which are formed by 'arbitrary and random' combination of syllables.

Let me give you an example. The word 弹劾 has remained in my mind ever since the first time I came across it. However, it took me quite a while to remember the word 'impeach', after a process of forgetting and remembering.

Obviously, you know nothing about Chinese or how Chinese writing system functions. So it's really pointless for me to keep on arguing over this subject with you. Since you know only one side of the story, anything that comes out of your mouth is more likely to be subjective, prejudiced, and -- like you have put it so nicely -- blinded by your ethnic pride.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:58 am GMT
<< No, I'm not blinded by ethnic pride. I think you are. >>

Don't just throw the word back at me just because I said them to you... take a moment and think before you open your mouth:

How can I be blinded by ethnic pride if I'm neither Korean nor Japanese?
What ethnic pride am I blinded by when I'm promoting alphabets (which are used in almost every ethnic background's language, except for Chinese and a few others.)

Now, back to the topic, which you avoided... I gave you the "tennis" example, can you explain to me how are Chinese characters superior in that particular situation? Enlighten me.

<< Do you know why my English still sxcks despite the tremendous amount of time and effort I have put into it? It's the 'arbitrary and random' combination of syllables to form a word or concept. >>

While there is absolutely nothing random about a word like "car" and thousands of others like it, I might agree with you on the randomness of spelling for certain English words... why don't you talk about truly phonetic languages like Turkish or Korean.... anything random about those?

<< The difficulty in learning thousands of Chinese characters is nothing compared to the agony of memorizing thousands of English words which are formed by 'arbitrary and random' combination of syllables. >>

Unless you're inherently stupid (which I don't think you are) then you should have no problem in doing what millions of others have already did and learn a language with an alphabet, starting from Abaza and ending in Zulu.


<< Obviously, you know nothing about Chinese or how Chinese writing system functions. So it's really pointless for me to keep on arguing over this subject with you. >>

So I'm guessing that's your way out, eh?
You don't have proof of your argument so you just give up, well that's fine but at least own up to it and admit that you are wrong, or else proove me wrong.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:00 am GMT
prove*
Patrick   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:13 am GMT
Just to set the record CANadian, you cut off the end of my quote before. I did not simply say that it would be a poor choice to abandon hanzi/kanji (though it is true that I believe it), I was making a point about how stupid it would be if they did that just to make it easier for Westerners to learn. The part you cut off was my point.

And, considering the high literacy rate in Taiwan and growing rate in China, I see no reason why they should have to switch to pinyin or zhuyin to make the writing easier. The people (and indeed, any average person) can learn this system of writing.

I suppose I'd really like to say that even as a Westerner I love learning traditional Chinese characters. To me, they are worth the effort.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:46 am GMT
^

Hi Patrick, thanks for the clarification... I knew that that was your point and we are in complete consensus, I totally agree with you.
My wanting Kanji to be done away with has absolutely nothing to do with ease of learning for Westerners, to hell with them :-)

What really matters to me is the fact that Kanji is a foreign element in Japanese (not native, as opposed to Hiragana/Katakana, which are).

Also, there was a reason why Kana was introduced to Japanese.... it's just too cumbersome and unwieldy to stick to Kanji when writing Japanese, it has a completely different structure and grammar from Chinese... it's just not suitable for it. Exactly how the Arabic script was not suitable for Turkish and how the Roman Alphabet fits like a glove.

So, again... this has nothing to do with facilitating learning to Westerners, I don't care for that one bit.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:53 am GMT
So, to turn this into a constructive conversation rather than just a lamentation, I suggest that, in order to overcome ambiguities resulting from the obsolescence of Kanji, Japanese could introduce spaces between words. The space could play the former role of a Kanji character, which is to mark the begining of a new word.

Granted, this will not rid Japanese of ALL ambiguities, but it would help a little bit. More features have to be incorporated.
Mo Shui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:44 pm GMT
CANadian,

<<There is a reason why printing started in Europe (using alphabets) and not in China (using characters.) >>

Let me quote from Wikipedia:

"It is clear that the Chinese were the first by several centuries to use the process to print solid text, and equally that, much later, in Europe the printing of images on cloth developed into the printing of images on paper."


<< Also...and it will be up to the reader to decipher the meaning ... This could be very random and confusing and backwards.
A perfect example of that is: 网球 which is made up of two character:
... it still leaves a great room for error. What about basketball and volleyball, they're both games that involve a net and a ball... >>

Yeah...just like I thought, you know nothing about Chinese writing system, and yet you have so much to talk about it!

That 'perfect example' of yours is in fact a boring one.

Let's look at another example.

Let me randomly select five characters as follows:

动(move), 物(thing), 人(man), 行(walk), 生(live)

Once you have learned the five selected characters, it then becomes an absolute breeze to learn the following words formed with two of the selected five characters:

动物(animal) ,动人(touching),人物(character),人生(life),行动(action),行人(pedestrian),生动(lively),生物(living thing),生人(stranger),人人(everybody)

Initially, to learn all the five selected words, you may have to put in five times the effort to learn one single word. But after that, you can easily expand your vocabulary to an additional ten words with relatively little effort in relatively little time.

It's almost like - buy 5 and get 10 free!

In short, to add an additional 15 words to your Chinese vocabulary, you only have to put in slightly more than 5 times the effort to learn one single word.


Now Let's take a look at how the corresponding English words, i.e. move, thing, man, walk, live, animal, touching, character, life, action, pedestrian, lively, living thing, stranger and everybody, are learned.

Obviously, each English word is formed by a random and arbitrary combination of meaningless syllables. Almost the same amount of effort and time is required to learn every single word. Imagine the time and effort you need to learn all 16 words.

It's like – buy 16 and get none free!

In short, to add an additional 16 words to your English vocabulary, you need to put in 16 times the effort to learn one word.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:42 pm GMT
<< Yeah...just like I thought, you know nothing about Chinese writing system, and yet you have so much to talk about it! >>

Sir, you are STILL not answering the question!
The question is: How can you tell that 网球 means TENNIS and not Volleyball or Basketball? How do you clarify the confusion?


<< Let me randomly select five characters as follows:
动(move), 物(thing), 人(man), 行(walk), 生(live)

Once you have learned the five selected characters, it then becomes an absolute breeze to learn the following words formed with two of the selected five characters:

动物(animal) ,动人(touching),人物(character),人生(life),行动(action),行人(pedestrian),生动(lively),生物(living thing),生人(stranger),人人(everybody) >>


Again, we have the same ambiguity problem:


Why can't 人人 mean "couple" instead of "everybody"?
Afterall, there are only two "man" represented.

Why can't 动物 mean "car" instad of "animal"?
Afterall, they are both "moving things".

Why can't 生人 mean "friend" instead of "stranger"?
Afterall, a "living man" can mean anyone.


Could you please answer these 3 questions directly and succinctly?

As for printing, I was refering to mass printing that is done with a machine rather than manually... that's the whole point.
Westener   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:22 pm GMT
<<<动(move), 物(thing), 人(man), 行(walk), 生(live)

Once you have learned the five selected characters, it then becomes an absolute breeze to learn the following words formed with two of the selected five characters:

动物(animal) ,动人(touching),人物(character),人生(life),行动(action),行人(pedestrian),生动(lively),生物(living thing),生人(stranger),人人(everybody)>>>


That makes no sense at all because following those caracters what they actually say is this:

动物 (Thing that moves -how should I know it's an animal?-)
动人 (Man thing -What does that have to do with Touching?-)
人物 (Man thing -Again, it has nothing to do with Character?-)
人生 (Man that live -I'll give you that one, it sort of makes sense-)
行动 (Thing that walks -Action.. but why couldn't it be "Dog that jumps"?-)
行人 (Man that walks -Ok.. I guess that could be a pedestrian-)
生动 (Live Move -it's pretty hard to figure out that that means "lively"-)
生物 (Living thing -That's the only one that actually makes sense-)
生人 (Alive person -So any person alive is an Stranger?-)
人人 (Two persons -As they said it should be Couple not Everybody)
Westerner   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:25 pm GMT
Sorry in this one I meant to say:

动人 (Moving man -What does that have to do with Touching?-)
china1   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:33 pm GMT
I replace to answer in advance.

Why can't 生人 mean "friend" instead of "stranger"?
Afterall, a "living man" can mean anyone.
===============================
Here 生 means not cooked,for example 生菜 means not cooked dishs.

Why can't 动物 means "car" instad of "animal"?
Afterall, they are both "moving things".
================================
Here 动 includes the meaning of activities and move and unstable behavior.

Why can't 人人 mean "couple" instead of "everybody"?
Afterall, there are only two "man" represented.
================================
This question is interesting, I don't know. We have other words represent couple, which are 对 or 双.
china1   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:55 pm GMT
动人 (Moving man -What does that have to do with Touching?-)
========================================
Here 动 means "to change sb's psychology, emotion", “to touch”, not mean move. This is a extended meaning of 动.
CANadian   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:09 pm GMT
Mo Shui said: << 动(move), 生(live) >>

... then

china1 said:

<< Here 生 means not cooked >>

<< Here 动 includes the meaning of activities and move and unstable behavior. >>

<< Here 动 means "to change sb's psychology, emotion", “to touch”, not mean move. This is a extended meaning of 动. >>


Aha, so it's not as easy as Mo Shui made it sound... I see that some of the characters change meaning when being affixed to other characters. A rather important piece of information, wouldn't you say?

It's starting to look like a "buy 16 get none free" scenario.



p.s. I still don't understand the correlation between 生人 (lit. Cooked Man) and friend.
Patrick   Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:27 pm GMT
Ok CANadian, thanks. I certainly can't debate with you about Japanese, I know very little about it. And I'm sure putting in the effort to romanize Chinese would be more efficient, I just like the looks of the characters and their history.

I think nearly every language is a "buy 16 get none free" language. CANadian, you demonstrated above that characters mean different things in different situations, and Mo Shui, you demonstrated the same about English. Let me do the final part and demonstrate that you actually can correlate words in English based on their parts, especially if you have prior knowledge of a language like latin:

root -mit -mission ---derived from lattin mittere, "send" (if I remember correctly)
ad- ("to, into") -mit "send" = allow in
e- ("out of") -mit "send" = give off
sub- ("under") -mit "send" = give in, obey
etc. etc.
One should also notice that "ad-" "e-" and "sub-," among many others, are friendly little prefixes that also attach to other words and change the meaning in similar ways.

This is not to put down characters- again, I think hanzi (especially traditional ones) are very aesthetically pleasing, interesting to study, and an important part of Chinese culture.
china1   Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:42 pm GMT
<<I still don't understand the correlation between 生人 (lit. Cooked Man) and friend>>

I correct. Here 生 originally means unripe (of fruit or crops) in the word "生人". Unfamiliar is its extended meaning. In addition, uncooked is also one meaning of 生.