Imagine if Spain would join to Portugal

John   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:31 am GMT
No way. Portugal has fought their entire history to stay an independent country and a union with Spain would be an insult to all of those that have fought in those wars. This would only satisfy Spain's craving of creating a united Iberia. They tried to pull a fast one on them with Phillip III and in 1640 Portugal separated from Spain *.Besides Spain has enough problems with their separatist groups, adding Portugal to the mix would just make matters worse.

*Remember Portugal didn't lose its independence. It was a union.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:46 am GMT
But Portugal at those times was not a democracy, those who wanted to stay independent were the king and the noblemen who wanted to keep the privileges that obviously after an union with Spain would diminish or dissapear completely. Now Portugual is a democracy and this changes the things because it will be people who decide. As for the basques and catalans, now the separatists don't rule any of these provinces, so they don't pose a problem. If Portugal joined Spain would they later say they want to be independent again? That would be absurd. Let me tell you that Spain was the very first one who is not and never was really interested in Portugal because when in 1640 both Portugal and Catalonia commited rebellion at the same time, Spain considered more important to defeat the rebels in Catalonia and to restore order , sending many soldiers there and leaving Portugal alone and this is what the Portuguese rulers took profit of to gain the independence until nowadays. Spain always preferred to have more Mediterranean coast instead of poor Portugal in the westermost corner of Europe.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:56 am GMT
<<fortunately it disappeared and finally Spain from the bottom of Europe have made giant steps.
Say thanks to "communists" if Spain almost reached the other EU countries >>


Not true, the economy of Spain based on industry and services was created by Franco and later, when democracy was restored, it was partially dismantled by the socialist party. This party is not really socialist but social-democrat, just like the Labour Party , but certainly somewhat more leftist (not communist anyways). For example the car making company SEAT created during the Fraco regime was sold to German Volkswagen. Before Franco Spain was an agrarian country. That during the Franco regime Spain was not a democracy is another question, but Spain was not at the bottom of Europe then economically speaking, there were much worse countries like all the communist ones , who remain poorer than Spain even nowadays because of their communist past , and Portugal which remains poor whether it is a democracy or not.
Rui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:34 am GMT
<<Spain always preferred to have more Mediterranean coast instead of poor Portugal in the westermost corner of Europe. >>

Simply not true. Spain got what it got because history went that way, thhey didn't prefer or looked for the Mediterranean coast.

Concerning the development, Portugal always has been more richer than Spain in the past, except for the last 30 years. And it's not hard to find why, bigger coast in %, smaller country, more arable land in %, easier to rule due to it's small dimension, and so on.

Why wouldn't be surprised if Portugal manage to reach Spain development in a medium term future.

And because we are on a language forum, let me add that the skills and the proficiency of the Portuguese people in languages comparing to the Spanish ones is huge.
Rui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:35 am GMT
opss change why to I :)
Harman   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:07 am GMT
What about a mix between portuguese and spanish language? you can call it neo-latin or ibero. Those languages are so closed it will go on.
At least one latin language will survive when all planet speak english in future.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:59 am GMT
<<Simply not true. Spain got what it got because history went that way, thhey didn't prefer or looked for the Mediterranean coast.
>>

What are your arguments to back it's not true? Another proof : Queen Isabella I of Castile married Ferdinand of Aragon, because there were strong interests put into making Castile and Aragon an united nation. Portugal was not relevant, and in 1640 Spain demostrated again that prefered that part of the Iberian Peninsula instead of Portugal sending fast the Army to stop the Catalan secession, whereas Portugal was semi-abandoned by the authorities.

<<Concerning the development, Portugal always has been more richer than Spain in the past, except for the last 30 years>>

Are you joking right? Portugal had lower GDP per capita than Spain during the whole XX century. Look it up. It's very easy to check that.


<<Why wouldn't be surprised if Portugal manage to reach Spain development in a medium term future. >>

Who knows what will happen in the future. But right now , despite Spain is in recession (Portugal too), has 30% more GDP than Portugal. it's a considerable gap and I doubt you will catch Spain up in the medium term. Portugal should grow at 5% and Spain be stagnated, but it happens that when Spain's economy is bad, it affects to Portugal a lot because Portugal exports a lot to Spain.


<<the Portuguese people in languages comparing to the Spanish ones is huge. >>

Very true. Spanish people can't speak Portuguese most of them, whereas I've met many Portugueses who speak Spain quite well.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:01 am GMT
What about a mix between portuguese and spanish language?

It already exists, it's called Galician. Morphologically and grammatically is closer to Portuguese than to Spanish, but sounds very much like Spanish.
Rui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:33 am GMT
Guest,

Some thirty years ago the Portuguese villages near the border were helping and receiving hunger spanish people escaping from the civil war. The Portuguese Escudo was always stronger than the Spanish Peseta, thirty years ago were the Portugues that went to Spain to shop and not the other way around ;)

But ok, lets say that in the past century the economic difference weren't that big.

Concerning history, well...having it's empire at it's west it was far more important Portugal than Cataluņa. And Lisbon was the natural choice for the Capital.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:51 am GMT
<<Some thirty years ago the Portuguese villages near the border were helping and receiving hunger spanish people escaping from the civil war. The Portuguese Escudo was always stronger than the Spanish Peseta, thirty years ago were the Portugues that went to Spain to shop and not the other way around ;) >>

And? It was a civl war, man, an exceptional situation . Those people that might cross the border were Republicans that went to Portugal and later had to flee to South America, they didn't want to stay in Portugal, because among other reasons it had another fascist regime like the one forced them to migrate.
The strengh of a currency does not mean anything, the Italian lira was an archi weak currency but Italian economy is more modern and productive than the Spanish one. Portuguese people still come to buy certain things that are cheaper in Spain like tobacco and alcohol. They also like a lot gambling in Spanish casinos near to the border.
Rui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:28 pm GMT
And your point is????

You can't deny the fact that historically Portuguese people were on average better well off than Spanish ones. I don't even care about it, this things don't take my sleep away. It's just a fact.
Guest   Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:43 pm GMT
<<You can't deny the fact that historically Portuguese people were on average better well off than Spanish ones.
>>

If you feel better believing that... Portuguese people still keep migrating to other countries, even to poor Spanish regions like Extremadura , so figure it out. Hell, I see it with my own eyes that portuguese women go to Spanish hospitals to give birth because Spanish healtchare is much better. You can't cheat me man.
Rui   Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:25 pm GMT
That emigration only happened on the past few years, not even decades. How could it happen before? Extremadura has a lower PIB per capita than Portugal currently, is a dockland region with a historical lower population density something like less than a quarter than Portugal.

Portuguese people go to Santa Cristina in Badajoz for instace to give child birth because the Portuguese and Spanish autorithies decided that a single hospital for birth was better than 2 ones in a 15km distance. Given that Santa Cristina receives money from the Portuguese autorithies on compesation for that.

I'm not trying to cheat anyone here, you just have to think for yourself how come a country that's more than five times bigger than the other manage to achive so little comparing to that one.
Beatha   Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:08 pm GMT
I am from Norway and here we all know that Portugal is an embarrassment to the rest of Western Europe!

Unfortunately the EU must be always an eye, to which Portugal is not an economic pig. Portugal never walked with their legs, always based on the slave economies of its colonies, especially Brazil. Brazil was the chicken that lays golden eggs, literally.

Today Portugal receives EU funds, and so is growing a little but still well below the average for the continent. It is almost a country still underdeveloped and really have much to develop to reach the level of Spain, rich Country and Western which I have visited
Beatha   Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:12 pm GMT
<<That emigration only happened on the past few years, not even decades. How could it happen before? Extremadura has a lower PIB per capita than Portugal currently, is a dockland region with a historical lower population density something like less than a quarter than Portugal. >>


All of you are based Portuguese GDP Percapta. But know that Guinea has one of the largest GDPs percapta in the world, over 43 thousand dollars. But it is a poor country.


Norway is rich because it divides their income. Portugal is poor because it claims the profits from other countries and does not generate income. The income it generates, not divides!