Italian Pronunciation

LL   Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:27 am GMT
realistic...you know nothing!
guevon   Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:38 am GMT
It's a thread about the Italian language, so please stop writing about Spanish
PARISIAN   Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:24 pm GMT
If I understand well:

- The Spanish 'LL' sound is a geminated 'Y', right?
- The elusive Italian 'GLI' sound is a *correct* Spanish 'LL' combined with a distinctive hint of an 'L' sound, right?

It really strange the otherwise so straightforward Italian phonetics features such a subtle sound!
choutte   Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:50 pm GMT
Can the FRench pronounce properly TZ and DZ or R and RR Italian sounds? What about Italian double consonants? There are so many of them that no foreigner cannot help mixing them every now and then even after many years that they live in Italy....
PARISIEN   Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:10 pm GMT
<< Can the FRench pronounce properly TZ and DZ or R and RR Italian sounds? What about Italian double consonants? >>

-- Double consonants are no problem in French. But they are rarely pronounced within one word (except for "syllabe" and "grammaire").

-- "TZ": yes, in "j'ai eu la note zéro" (= "j'è-u-lanotzéro") or, more rarely, "tu queutes Zoé? Tu pelotes Zaza?" (= "tukeutzoé?", "tuplotzaza"?)
-- "DZ": yes, like "au centre de Zagreb" (= "ôsantrdzabreg")
-- "DS": non existent in most languages, but very frequent in French: "pas de ça" (= "padsa")
-- "JJ": probably unknown in any other language but very matter-of-fact in French: "pages jaunes" (= "pajjônn"), or "ce que je joue" (= "skejjou")
-- "RR": also very frequent, like in "Mer Rouge" (= "merrouj"). But, granted, with a French uvular "R".
Livio   Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:40 pm GMT
I don't think anyone's really answered my question thoroughly if at all. So I'm just going to go with my gut and say that pronunciation for these word clusters depends on preference since there's no official Standard Italian.

So, I'll say Italia = ee-tal-yah and rinunciare = ree-noon-cha-ray.
matko   Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:46 pm GMT
"au centre de Zagreb"

<3 :-)

TZ => Italian (Z), Slavonic languages (C), German (TZ/Z)
DZ=> Italian (ZZ), Russian (D'), Croatian-Polish (DZ)
DS ???

@ Parisian: Spanish LL=LJ (in standard Spanish), but as one sound, not separately as in Swedish or English (million [mil-yon]).
It's like in Croatian "ljubav" [lj-ubav]. It's the same sound, and in my opinion, the only one existing in European languages that is the same as in standard Spanish. Nowadays, this sound is getting softer every day, and the L sound from that [LJ] is almost dropped, but still, in most of the Spanish regions you can still hear it.
The Italian [LJ] in "GLI" is the same sound as in Croatian LJ, but it sounds (sometimes) as a double consonant. I'm sure that the Italians will say that this sound is always doubled, yet, in Croatia there are lots of Italians (during the summer), and I wouldn't be so sure that GL is always doubled. Correction, i'm sure it's not doubled all the time!
moi   Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:54 am GMT
Une chose est certaine:

les suivants sons n'appartiennent pas au français standard d'après l'Association phonéthique internationale: Dz, tz, Tsch, (espagnol muchacho, italien cielo) gi (mot anglais John) gl (italien glielo). En plus, le français à l'exemple d'autres langues latines,( à l'exception de l'italien et quelques résidus en catalan) a dédoublé toutes les consonnes géminées du latin.

There's a clear difference between Croatian Lj and Italian gl , lj is more similar to Portuguese lh or classical Spanish LL
livio è scemo   Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:00 am GMT
there's no official Standard Italian

in your dreams! Every language has got a standard and many variants too
PARISIEN   Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:50 am GMT
@Matko:

Merci pour cette contribution.
Remarquablement clair.

<< I wouldn't be so sure that GL is always doubled. Correction, i'm sure it's not doubled all the time! >>

-- I also have the sensation that unlike conventional double consonants "gli" doesn't necessarily shorten the preceeding vowel.

But I've learned Italian mainly in Milan. There, the difference between "Italia" and "taglia" is a quite faint one, sometimes barely noticeable to non-Italians.
Italiano   Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:20 am GMT
Livio, it's halfway in between. If you say Ital-ya it might end up sounding like Itaglia, if you say Italee-ah it might not sound too natural if the separation is exaggerate. I think it's more like Italee-ah than Ital-ya, but to be exact I would say it's neither of them: there's a y sound but not as strong as in English.
I'm Italian. Ciao.
Italiano   Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:22 am GMT
I forgot to add there might be regional differences. So just think of it as something in between, more like Italee-ah though, but accepting it might vary slightly in different regions.
Livio   Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:10 am GMT
<<I forgot to add there might be regional differences. So just think of it as something in between, more like Italee-ah though, but accepting it might vary slightly in different regions.>>

Okay, thanks for replying. Everyone was going off topic so it was getting annoying that my original question(s) weren't being addressed. But yeah, I actually usually don't pronounce Italia with the Y sound. I do try to separate the vowels when speaking but at the natural speed of speech, it does somewhat sound like a Y sound (even though I'm not trying to make that sound).
Italian   Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:11 pm GMT
anyway you should pronounce ieri, iato o jella like yes
blanche   Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:18 pm GMT
TZ => Italian (Z), Slavonic languages (C), German (TZ/Z)
DZ=> Italian (ZZ), Russian (D'), Croatian-Polish (DZ)


the Dz sound may be both Z or ZZ in Italian. Russian does not have this sound!