The question is the following:
is a gay or a left-handed a freak or are you biased against these people?
is a gay or a left-handed a freak or are you biased against these people?
Bias Toward Multilinguals?
What do you think polyglots would do in a Polyglot Club? Monday - Spanish day, Tuesday - Chinese day.... or would there be a linguistic orgy: as many languages as possible all at once?
But you can't just talk, maybe they could play Mah Jong at one table, Go at another, Bridge and Durak at third and fourth table? Play charades in six different languages simultaneously...
Poetry nights would be a blast.
But you can't just talk, maybe they could play Mah Jong at one table, Go at another, Bridge and Durak at third and fourth table? Play charades in six different languages simultaneously...
Poetry nights would be a blast.
"For me it was interesting because I could learn sounds of languages I probably will never learn like Xhosa, Hindi and Arabic. It was also helpful when teaching Portuguese to Japanese who can't distinguish between b and v but most learned it right away after learning that b is bilabial and v is a labio-dental sound. Of course some people didn't need this explanation to learn these sounds or do something"
Whoa! I feel almost exactly the same way about the same languages.
Xhosa still scares me, lol, Arabic, not so much.
I did take a course on phonetics in French. The book was called "Phonics" though. It was one of the most valuable courses I have ever taken. People who are good mimics don't need phonetics to learn sounds, but I found that drawing pictures of the inside of the mouth helped some people learn sounds. Maybe it was the combination of visual and auditory learning put into practice. I'm a lay person, but like Xie seems to indicate, some things in linguistics can be figured out on your own either through reading or...
On the other hand, I suspect linguists may know a few things it may be valuable to know-like how many types of grammar there are in the world. I read that there are six kinds, but haven't had time to research that.
It's Saturday and I've been writing too long. I saw your post about Chinese and Dutch. I want to work on both of them next year. If I stop posting at Antimoon, I'll make great progress!
Whoa! I feel almost exactly the same way about the same languages.
Xhosa still scares me, lol, Arabic, not so much.
I did take a course on phonetics in French. The book was called "Phonics" though. It was one of the most valuable courses I have ever taken. People who are good mimics don't need phonetics to learn sounds, but I found that drawing pictures of the inside of the mouth helped some people learn sounds. Maybe it was the combination of visual and auditory learning put into practice. I'm a lay person, but like Xie seems to indicate, some things in linguistics can be figured out on your own either through reading or...
On the other hand, I suspect linguists may know a few things it may be valuable to know-like how many types of grammar there are in the world. I read that there are six kinds, but haven't had time to research that.
It's Saturday and I've been writing too long. I saw your post about Chinese and Dutch. I want to work on both of them next year. If I stop posting at Antimoon, I'll make great progress!
"What do you think polyglots would do in a Polyglot Club? Monday - Spanish day, Tuesday - Chinese day.... or would there be a linguistic orgy: as many languages as possible all at once?
But you can't just talk, maybe they could play Mah Jong at one table, Go at another, Bridge and Durak at third and fourth table? Play charades in six different languages simultaneously...
Poetry nights would be a blast. "
There are polyglot clubs in France and the US. In NYC, you can contact Barry Farber or google his name or get his book "How to Learn Any Language". There is a polyglot club in my city. I haven't contacted them yet, but I understand that they do things like other language and cultural clubs-EAT good food, and speak in the language. I suspect most of them are European-centered.
But you can't just talk, maybe they could play Mah Jong at one table, Go at another, Bridge and Durak at third and fourth table? Play charades in six different languages simultaneously...
Poetry nights would be a blast. "
There are polyglot clubs in France and the US. In NYC, you can contact Barry Farber or google his name or get his book "How to Learn Any Language". There is a polyglot club in my city. I haven't contacted them yet, but I understand that they do things like other language and cultural clubs-EAT good food, and speak in the language. I suspect most of them are European-centered.
"The question is the following:
is a gay or a left-handed a freak or are you biased against these people? "
I think people start SEEING multilinguals as freaks, that's what I don't like. I have been friends with both gay people and left-handed people.
The other thing I didn't mention is the idea that there something "not normal" going on in the multilingual, gay, left-handed, what have you brain. Maybe in the interest of politeness people will say that multilingual brains are wired differently. If there is absolutely no discrimination based on research, then no problem, but I don't think this hyperpolyglot research can honestly yield a "type" and if it does what does this imply? What did people call savants previously? I will tell you: Idiot savants. In this age of PC, I don't think people will go there again, but people do abort based on what they find out about "disorders" and "defects".
Overly cautious on my part? Maybe. I don't like the labels I see.
is a gay or a left-handed a freak or are you biased against these people? "
I think people start SEEING multilinguals as freaks, that's what I don't like. I have been friends with both gay people and left-handed people.
The other thing I didn't mention is the idea that there something "not normal" going on in the multilingual, gay, left-handed, what have you brain. Maybe in the interest of politeness people will say that multilingual brains are wired differently. If there is absolutely no discrimination based on research, then no problem, but I don't think this hyperpolyglot research can honestly yield a "type" and if it does what does this imply? What did people call savants previously? I will tell you: Idiot savants. In this age of PC, I don't think people will go there again, but people do abort based on what they find out about "disorders" and "defects".
Overly cautious on my part? Maybe. I don't like the labels I see.
>the idea that there something "not normal" going on in the multilingual...brain<
Just imagine what is going on in those Polyglot clubs...
Just imagine what is going on in those Polyglot clubs...
Ah, I see. You must have been learning about languages from Ali G. and Professor Chomsky.
>>
I heard one asian man describe himself as a "Banana"-I'm not kidding.
To him, he thought "white", looked "yellow", but he isn't the only Asian who felt that they were "white" on the inside, but "yellow" on the outside.
I think it goes with speaking the language. People think that if you speak a language well, then you know the culture well.
You got a good point for this topic, but it wasn't about my feeling of unfair treatment (which is off-topic, sorry). I implied that some non-Chinese I met actually expected English from me unfairly.
But yes, I got the feeling that, the more English I learn, the better my English will be, and the more enlightened, liberal, etc, I will be. It also follows that I'll be, as I can testify through the years since high school, even more disgusted by the Chinese culture in practice. Sorry, off-topic again. The point is that... just like any other cultures, the Chinese have some cultural ideals, and we also appreciate good people (good Chinese) for their cultural contributions. Yet, in PRACTICE, you already saw one disgusting fact I experienced: unreasonable expectation of English from a fellow Chinese (Hong Kong).
Hong Kong still respects law and order at large, unlike its own country, but there are lots of aspects, EXACTLY about law and order, that can be disgusting. Sometimes, it's also cultural. A society that places more importance on status and wealth, in practice, may well have a high Gini index, such as Hong Kong - even more serious than mainland China at large, fairly at the extreme around the globe.
The more I am removed from my own country (well, I'm returning to Hong Kong within some days), the more I feel disgusted. And I'm torn. In Germany, since I'm not German and not a German native, either, very few people really understand me as well as how the average young Chinese can. I'm not a political exile or something, but, while I witnessed discrimination, insults, misunderstanding, prejudices, etc, in Germany, I still found it a much more pleasant place to live. I'd rather not be easily understood by others than to lead yet another new, un-free life in Hong Kong, where, well, as you might be able to predict, we have far harder economic difficulties. Just in the cases of many immigrants worldwide, ECONOMIC sufferings are always more significant than "cultural". For cultural, as I can witness, foreign domestic helpers in Hong Kong do their jobs very well for us and they don't need to care whether we'd bother at all to learn Tagalog or Indonesian and whether we look down on them or not. But for economic, it's always imperative. Just because of economic, we Chinese have built, in my words, an invisible, huge worldwide diaspora, outnumbering the population of Scandinavia by far. In my own family, too, are also a lot of emigrants and would-be.
I heard one asian man describe himself as a "Banana"-I'm not kidding.
To him, he thought "white", looked "yellow", but he isn't the only Asian who felt that they were "white" on the inside, but "yellow" on the outside.
I think it goes with speaking the language. People think that if you speak a language well, then you know the culture well.
You got a good point for this topic, but it wasn't about my feeling of unfair treatment (which is off-topic, sorry). I implied that some non-Chinese I met actually expected English from me unfairly.
But yes, I got the feeling that, the more English I learn, the better my English will be, and the more enlightened, liberal, etc, I will be. It also follows that I'll be, as I can testify through the years since high school, even more disgusted by the Chinese culture in practice. Sorry, off-topic again. The point is that... just like any other cultures, the Chinese have some cultural ideals, and we also appreciate good people (good Chinese) for their cultural contributions. Yet, in PRACTICE, you already saw one disgusting fact I experienced: unreasonable expectation of English from a fellow Chinese (Hong Kong).
Hong Kong still respects law and order at large, unlike its own country, but there are lots of aspects, EXACTLY about law and order, that can be disgusting. Sometimes, it's also cultural. A society that places more importance on status and wealth, in practice, may well have a high Gini index, such as Hong Kong - even more serious than mainland China at large, fairly at the extreme around the globe.
The more I am removed from my own country (well, I'm returning to Hong Kong within some days), the more I feel disgusted. And I'm torn. In Germany, since I'm not German and not a German native, either, very few people really understand me as well as how the average young Chinese can. I'm not a political exile or something, but, while I witnessed discrimination, insults, misunderstanding, prejudices, etc, in Germany, I still found it a much more pleasant place to live. I'd rather not be easily understood by others than to lead yet another new, un-free life in Hong Kong, where, well, as you might be able to predict, we have far harder economic difficulties. Just in the cases of many immigrants worldwide, ECONOMIC sufferings are always more significant than "cultural". For cultural, as I can witness, foreign domestic helpers in Hong Kong do their jobs very well for us and they don't need to care whether we'd bother at all to learn Tagalog or Indonesian and whether we look down on them or not. But for economic, it's always imperative. Just because of economic, we Chinese have built, in my words, an invisible, huge worldwide diaspora, outnumbering the population of Scandinavia by far. In my own family, too, are also a lot of emigrants and would-be.
I have too much to do with departure, so I missed my point again:
What I mean is, just because, for example, countries like Germany strikes me as more liberal, having more freedom, having more fresh air (Hong Kong's air quality is disgusting. My opinion.), more tolerant of others (not just immigrants, but anyone in general), I could be even more attracted to the goal of finally leaving Hong Kong for good. I'm serious. But of course, economic factors are always more important.
Sometimes, in Germany, I even thought that there's nothing wrong with thinking white. In the last posts, I just meant that some non-Chinese didn't respect me in terms of language sovereignty. They just thought I should know this English word and that, and if I don't, I'd be insulting them/being condescending, etc. And I said this is unfair because you can't expect perfect English or even good English from me. As a member of the educated elite (though without the money to be in the middle class), "I" can claim better command of English than at least 90% of Chinese in their own country. But still, I'm clearly NOT an Anglophone, not to mention my cultural background, etc. I still don't understand why an African American could get angry with me just because I didn't understand what ebonics was.
Come on, just guess how many Africans/African Americans I've ever met in my life? I SAW a lot of such faces back home too, but for personal contact, just 4, all in Germany, all in this year. But on the other hand, you, African/African American, you can't meet a Chinese guy, perhaps for the first time in your life, and say that he's a very shy guy, that you don't like him for some physical attributes, that you're irritated because he doesn't understand what ebonics is, and that "it's a fact that Chinese guys have small genitals" to him. I managed to befriend all of them somehow, though not much, but it still didn't change the negative opinion of some of them about me/Chinese guys.
And as in the opinions of many Chinese Chinese (i.e. not overseas, anywhere in PRC or ROC), I share a common understanding: THEY, non-Chinese, just don't understand us. And they, especially those of African descent (just by chance, in my case, because they're always more direct than everybody else), could never understand the Chinese, and their cultural subtleties. I should agree that some behavior of us is weird, but it strikes me as even more weird when they said directly that "you Chinese people are weird". At least, speaking of experiences, no one (Asian, European) ever said that. They simply have no concept of face-giving at all, "far worse" than the average European-descent people who would be at least a bit more reserved.
This is also why I suddenly wrote about how I'll consider a foreign date. I don't particularly buy all those hefty family ideals of the Chinese, and all that conservatism, but I already witnessed how difficult it could be to communicate with foreigners, and in a language that some of them expect YOU to know well even before you open your mouth. As a normal rule, of course, I wouldn't like to and couldn't, either, communicate with someone who just doesn't care for any Chinese, especially because we irritate them or they just hate us.
What I mean is, just because, for example, countries like Germany strikes me as more liberal, having more freedom, having more fresh air (Hong Kong's air quality is disgusting. My opinion.), more tolerant of others (not just immigrants, but anyone in general), I could be even more attracted to the goal of finally leaving Hong Kong for good. I'm serious. But of course, economic factors are always more important.
Sometimes, in Germany, I even thought that there's nothing wrong with thinking white. In the last posts, I just meant that some non-Chinese didn't respect me in terms of language sovereignty. They just thought I should know this English word and that, and if I don't, I'd be insulting them/being condescending, etc. And I said this is unfair because you can't expect perfect English or even good English from me. As a member of the educated elite (though without the money to be in the middle class), "I" can claim better command of English than at least 90% of Chinese in their own country. But still, I'm clearly NOT an Anglophone, not to mention my cultural background, etc. I still don't understand why an African American could get angry with me just because I didn't understand what ebonics was.
Come on, just guess how many Africans/African Americans I've ever met in my life? I SAW a lot of such faces back home too, but for personal contact, just 4, all in Germany, all in this year. But on the other hand, you, African/African American, you can't meet a Chinese guy, perhaps for the first time in your life, and say that he's a very shy guy, that you don't like him for some physical attributes, that you're irritated because he doesn't understand what ebonics is, and that "it's a fact that Chinese guys have small genitals" to him. I managed to befriend all of them somehow, though not much, but it still didn't change the negative opinion of some of them about me/Chinese guys.
And as in the opinions of many Chinese Chinese (i.e. not overseas, anywhere in PRC or ROC), I share a common understanding: THEY, non-Chinese, just don't understand us. And they, especially those of African descent (just by chance, in my case, because they're always more direct than everybody else), could never understand the Chinese, and their cultural subtleties. I should agree that some behavior of us is weird, but it strikes me as even more weird when they said directly that "you Chinese people are weird". At least, speaking of experiences, no one (Asian, European) ever said that. They simply have no concept of face-giving at all, "far worse" than the average European-descent people who would be at least a bit more reserved.
This is also why I suddenly wrote about how I'll consider a foreign date. I don't particularly buy all those hefty family ideals of the Chinese, and all that conservatism, but I already witnessed how difficult it could be to communicate with foreigners, and in a language that some of them expect YOU to know well even before you open your mouth. As a normal rule, of course, I wouldn't like to and couldn't, either, communicate with someone who just doesn't care for any Chinese, especially because we irritate them or they just hate us.
<<I think people start SEEING multilinguals as freaks, that's what I don't like. I have been friends with both gay people and left-handed people. >>
But a hyperpolyglot (like 8 languages) is actually a freak in most cases! Ok, if they grew up in 8 different countries, then that's understandable. But anyone who has the time to sit around and study enough to become fluent in 8 languages obviously has some kind of obsessive disorder. I study only 2 foreign languages and I already feel I am going a bit to far in my obsession.
I think we can safely say that Professor Arguelle's 'exile' in Korea was rather 'freaky', wouldn't you agree? Not that it's a bad thing per se - people can do what they want and I have no say - but it IS freaky from most people's point of view. I respect the guy, but still let's look at the definition of 'freak':
1. someone who is so ardently devoted to something that it resembles an addiction; "a golf addict"; "a car nut"; "a news junkie"
2. a person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed
I think a hyperpolyglot satisfies both definitions. Think about it from an objective point of view, spending 10 years in monastic isolation to learn languages? That IS 'markedly unsusual' and it certainly 'resembles an addiction'. It doesn't get much more freaky than that!
But a hyperpolyglot (like 8 languages) is actually a freak in most cases! Ok, if they grew up in 8 different countries, then that's understandable. But anyone who has the time to sit around and study enough to become fluent in 8 languages obviously has some kind of obsessive disorder. I study only 2 foreign languages and I already feel I am going a bit to far in my obsession.
I think we can safely say that Professor Arguelle's 'exile' in Korea was rather 'freaky', wouldn't you agree? Not that it's a bad thing per se - people can do what they want and I have no say - but it IS freaky from most people's point of view. I respect the guy, but still let's look at the definition of 'freak':
1. someone who is so ardently devoted to something that it resembles an addiction; "a golf addict"; "a car nut"; "a news junkie"
2. a person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed
I think a hyperpolyglot satisfies both definitions. Think about it from an objective point of view, spending 10 years in monastic isolation to learn languages? That IS 'markedly unsusual' and it certainly 'resembles an addiction'. It doesn't get much more freaky than that!
>It doesn't get much more freaky than that! <
Except in a polyglot club!
Except in a polyglot club!
<<left-handed>>
I think you've stumbled on something there -- maybe that's I always have a hard time with foreign languages :)
I think you've stumbled on something there -- maybe that's I always have a hard time with foreign languages :)
"Does the world have to be so western that I must remain yellow (in Chinese terms, it just means Asian) and speak white and think white?"
-Xie"
Hey Xie: I'm sorry to know you're struggling with cultural matters but I guess that people will require you to know a little about the culture everywhere, even though it's impossible to throw away your culture and embrace another just like that.
Sometimes people freak out with me because even though I speak the language I think there's a limit as for adapting to the Japanese culture and I just hate that proverb "When in Rome do as the Romans do". Of course I'm not saying I'll just behave and live like a Brazilian everywhere I go but I have my comfort zone and people will also like to respect that. For instance, since I'm christian I go to my son's daycare from time to time and tell the teacher I don't want my son to partake in certain Japanese "cultural" (or I should say "religious") activities such as children's day, tanabata, day of the dead, etc.
If I go to Germany I guess I'll give the Germans a difficult time because I NEVER talk about soccer, carnival or Bossa Nova :) By the way, this is the idea that most people I've met in Japan have about Brazil.
加油你的德語學習！
-Xie"
Hey Xie: I'm sorry to know you're struggling with cultural matters but I guess that people will require you to know a little about the culture everywhere, even though it's impossible to throw away your culture and embrace another just like that.
Sometimes people freak out with me because even though I speak the language I think there's a limit as for adapting to the Japanese culture and I just hate that proverb "When in Rome do as the Romans do". Of course I'm not saying I'll just behave and live like a Brazilian everywhere I go but I have my comfort zone and people will also like to respect that. For instance, since I'm christian I go to my son's daycare from time to time and tell the teacher I don't want my son to partake in certain Japanese "cultural" (or I should say "religious") activities such as children's day, tanabata, day of the dead, etc.
If I go to Germany I guess I'll give the Germans a difficult time because I NEVER talk about soccer, carnival or Bossa Nova :) By the way, this is the idea that most people I've met in Japan have about Brazil.
加油你的德語學習！
"Whoa! I feel almost exactly the same way about the same languages.
Xhosa still scares me, lol, Arabic, not so much."
It's good to have your input on this since it shows XHOSA is a challenge for people who speak European languages. I still remember I met a lady from South Africa called "NOXOLO" and read it as "nocholo" just to hear that beautiful click for the "X" :)
"I did take a course on phonetics in French. The book was called "Phonics" though. It was one of the most valuable courses I have ever taken. People who are good mimics don't need phonetics to learn sounds, but I found that drawing pictures of the inside of the mouth helped some people learn sounds. Maybe it was the combination of visual and auditory learning put into practice. I'm a lay person, but like Xie seems to indicate, some things in linguistics can be figured out on your own either through reading or... "
I guess we have to ask more about Xie's techniques for learning without theories. But as you said phonetics can be really useful and a good explanation can also help us get that difficult sound. When I was teaching I literally had to explain HOW TO PRONOUNCE sounds that don't exist in Japanese and that was really tough!!!A Japanese just won't repeat V or L just because we ask him/her to do it. Showing that V is a labio-dental sounds, i.e, pronounced by touching the lower lip and upper teeth was what it took to make my students saying VOCÊ instead of BOCÊ.
"On the other hand, I suspect linguists may know a few things it may be valuable to know-like how many types of grammar there are in the world. I read that there are six kinds, but haven't had time to research that."
In my experience phonetics is a good tool to know. As for the 6 types of grammar that was said by David Crystal,which I read in my first semester of linguistics at UFRJ but totally forgot because I flunked :) By the way, my teacher was fluent in Russsian. I also flunked in linguistics III, which was the worse course I took at UFRJ and did analysis of languages like a tree showing every part of the discourse. I'm really amazed I got my master's in sociolinguistics since I had a hard time learning linguistics :)
Types of grammar:
http://www.llp.armstrong.edu/5800/types.html
Linguistic tree: http://ltc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
"It's Saturday and I've been writing too long. I saw your post about Chinese and Dutch. I want to work on both of them next year. If I stop posting at Antimoon, I'll make great progress!"
I keep on telling me the same like I'll NEVER post at Antimoon again but then I see your tempting topics and can't resist :D
As long as don't study about the"linguistic tree", which I used to call "ecological linguistics" you'll be just fine.
Tenha um bom fim de semana
Xhosa still scares me, lol, Arabic, not so much."
It's good to have your input on this since it shows XHOSA is a challenge for people who speak European languages. I still remember I met a lady from South Africa called "NOXOLO" and read it as "nocholo" just to hear that beautiful click for the "X" :)
"I did take a course on phonetics in French. The book was called "Phonics" though. It was one of the most valuable courses I have ever taken. People who are good mimics don't need phonetics to learn sounds, but I found that drawing pictures of the inside of the mouth helped some people learn sounds. Maybe it was the combination of visual and auditory learning put into practice. I'm a lay person, but like Xie seems to indicate, some things in linguistics can be figured out on your own either through reading or... "
I guess we have to ask more about Xie's techniques for learning without theories. But as you said phonetics can be really useful and a good explanation can also help us get that difficult sound. When I was teaching I literally had to explain HOW TO PRONOUNCE sounds that don't exist in Japanese and that was really tough!!!A Japanese just won't repeat V or L just because we ask him/her to do it. Showing that V is a labio-dental sounds, i.e, pronounced by touching the lower lip and upper teeth was what it took to make my students saying VOCÊ instead of BOCÊ.
"On the other hand, I suspect linguists may know a few things it may be valuable to know-like how many types of grammar there are in the world. I read that there are six kinds, but haven't had time to research that."
In my experience phonetics is a good tool to know. As for the 6 types of grammar that was said by David Crystal,which I read in my first semester of linguistics at UFRJ but totally forgot because I flunked :) By the way, my teacher was fluent in Russsian. I also flunked in linguistics III, which was the worse course I took at UFRJ and did analysis of languages like a tree showing every part of the discourse. I'm really amazed I got my master's in sociolinguistics since I had a hard time learning linguistics :)
Types of grammar:
http://www.llp.armstrong.edu/5800/types.html
Linguistic tree: http://ltc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
"It's Saturday and I've been writing too long. I saw your post about Chinese and Dutch. I want to work on both of them next year. If I stop posting at Antimoon, I'll make great progress!"
I keep on telling me the same like I'll NEVER post at Antimoon again but then I see your tempting topics and can't resist :D
As long as don't study about the"linguistic tree", which I used to call "ecological linguistics" you'll be just fine.
Tenha um bom fim de semana
@K.T:
I found some books by David Crystal I used at UFRJ:
O que é lingüística?:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-100480462-que-e-linguistica-autor-david-crystal-_JM
Dicionário de lingüística e fonética:
http://www.zahar.com.br/catalogo_detalhe.asp?id=0142&ORDEM=A
I know you prefer praxis over theory but these books can probably help you learn more efficiently.
Um abraço e boa leitura!!
I found some books by David Crystal I used at UFRJ:
O que é lingüística?:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-100480462-que-e-linguistica-autor-david-crystal-_JM
Dicionário de lingüística e fonética:
http://www.zahar.com.br/catalogo_detalhe.asp?id=0142&ORDEM=A
I know you prefer praxis over theory but these books can probably help you learn more efficiently.
Um abraço e boa leitura!!