What You Should Consider Before Starting a Lang.

K. T.   Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:59 pm GMT
People often ask (whether or not this is usually a preface to another big fight about whether French or Spanish is best is another question) what language they should learn.

Basically, learn the language you have to learn or the language you want to learn.

After that, think about your skills and whether they will transfer as you learn another language. I think everyone can be a successful language learner, but some people will learn faster and better than other people in my opinion.

Why is that?

You can give your opinion, but I think there are several factors.

I think people who are good at distinguishing between little units of sound are more likely to get a good accent. This is why I think having French and English is a good combination. You get a lot of different vowels. Portuguese could be another such language. I'm a lay person, but I notice how "rich" a language is in sound. This has nothing to do with expressiveness (which Spanish, for example, has in great quantity) only richness in the number of sounds. Maybe a linguist knows the word to describe it. I call it the "sound system". Maybe phonology is the word.

So, if you start with a bigger repertory of sounds, moving to other languages is easier.

If you learn a related language, it won't be as difficult. I'm sure Slavic speakers know this, Romance language speakers, etc. Maybe the only people who don't know this are North Americans and Brits. Dutch is the
closest MAJOR language to English, but it isn't taught in a lot of places.
The second option would be to go further along the path (for English speakers) to German. We are only talking about the free aspects of language learning-the cognates, the sounds we already know, the turns of phrase that seem logical to us already somehow. "Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg." My mother says this all the time-in English. Did you piece it out if you don't speak German? Where there's a will, there's a way.

Of course, you get lots of cognates in the Latin languages. In French, they are word perfect in spelling, but alas, they don't sound the same.
In Spanish, Italian and Portuguese, you'll see many scientific and more formal words you'll recognize without a dictionary.

That makes things much easier.

Okay, so what if you are up for a bigger challenge? You could go for some other European languages. You can study Slavic languages without Cyrillic or go for the big daddy: Russian. Russian has a lot of beautiful sounds. Remember all the literature coming out of that language? Like it or not, Russian is the king of the Slavs for influence, imo.

If you want a language that sounds good, you could go for the language formerly know as Serbo-Croatian. Now it's BHS/BCS. It can be written without Cyrillic letters and it seems (remember I'm a lay person) rather phonetic. What you see is pretty much what you get after you learn how the sounds are represented.

Are these languages "harder"? Yes, they are-according to smart language people who rate these kinds of things. You have the advantage of some shared vocabulary with other languages in Europe, but then you have those new "slavic" roots and you have to learn about that secret word "cases"...That's a grammar thing. At this point you have to ask yourself the question every language person should ask? Am I smarter or at least as smart as the average speaker of the language I'm going to learn? If you say no, then choose a language closer to your native one.
You are, actually, as smart as a Russian or a Chinese person, but your mind has to be on board with the determination to learn the language. I'm not saying that you are SMARTER, just that you could probably find your intellectual match in those language populations.

Is that dumb or what? No, it's not dumb. I think people "psych" themselves "out",to use older slang, for failure by thinking that only
"smart" people speak Russian or Chinese.

HOWEVER,

You do need a good memory for sounds and vocabulary if you are going to learn the "difficult" languages. You do not have to be a genius, but you do have to remember the new grammar, sounds, and vocabulary of languages that are far, far away from your home language-languages like Mandarin, and Japanese. I don't know how to determine this, but I wonder if remembering sequences (as in music) would be one place to look for the kind of memory you need in some languages. Of course, there are examples of polyglots who claim to be terrible at music, but I would ask them, Do you like music? Can you recognize one piece from another piece? Can you sing on pitch? I'm not suggesting musical gift, but an enjoyment of sound. Heck, look at the "music" thread here. It's very, very long.

Summary: Choose a language close to your own for your first language if you are a bit afraid of learning a new language. If you want to learn lots of languages, choose one with many vowels so you can start to fine tune your ear while you are still young.

If you like challenges, love the culture and you have a good memory, go for a difficult language or a language in the middle.

I see languages like Greek, followed by Semitic languages like Arabic and Hebrew as languages of medium difficulty.

I've left out most of the languages in the world-interesting native American languages, interesting languages like Finnish and Hungarian-in Europe, but not in the same group known as IE, the languages of Africa (like the lovely Swahili), and many languages with interesting scripts (go to Omniglot.com to view them), and languages like Esperanto (said to be very easy to learn) and Interlingua that have been invented as means of communication.

It's up to you.
Tionghoa   Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:51 am GMT
first, personal interest.

second, learning materials.

third, whether useful or important.
J.C.   Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:58 am GMT
"there are examples of polyglots who claim to be terrible at music, but I would ask them, Do you like music? Can you recognize one piece from another piece? Can you sing on pitch? I'm not suggesting musical gift, but an enjoyment of sound."

This is interesting stuff. I have been telling myself I don't have what it takes to learn music but maybe because of an affinity with language sounds I'm starting to distinguish chords and melodies better day by day. Even the sharps and flats of notes got easier to listen and I stopped using tabbed music. Interestingly my FEAR of tonal languages has disappeared and I started listening the 4 tones in Chinese. Maybe that will lead me to other tonal languages I used to fear like Vietnamese or Thai.

"I see languages like Greek, followed by Semitic languages like Arabic and Hebrew as languages of medium difficulty. "

Indeed. These languages can be a hard nut to crack but once one starts studying them (I only studied Hebrew) they are easier than one might initially think.

"Like it or not, Russian is the king of the Slavs for influence, imo."

I think you helped me deciding which slavic language I'll be studying in the near future:Russian.
I really love Poland and have had many lovely friends (I miss my Polish teacher from "Uniwersytet Warszawski") but need more motivation than that...I guess that reading Достое́вский would be IT! :)

Since I don't travel much I get motivated to learn a language for reading. That was my motivation to learn French (Les misérables) and Dutch (Het Achterhuis).

Cheers!!
Zorro   Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:43 am GMT
Well, the United Nations official languages are English, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, Russian and French.

According to all experts the languages of the future are English, Spanish, Chinese and Arabic. French and Russian will be also very important. So, both lists are very similar.

I prefer the languages that United Nations and experts advice us. I speak English, Spanish, French and some Russian. I study now Arabic. The last one will be Chinese (from the easiest to the most difficult).

That's the way I think.
blanc   Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 am GMT
How is Arabic important?
Tag   Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:15 am GMT
blanc Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 am GMT
(How is Arabic important? )

In terms of speakers, Arabic is the largest member of the Semitic language family. It is spoken by more than 280 million people as a first language and by 250 million more as a second language, official language of 25 countries.
Reynard   Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:02 pm GMT
Well, the United Nations official languages are English, French, Chinese, Arabic, Russian and Spanish.

According to all experts the only global languages are English, and French and will remain so. Russian, Spanish, Arabic, and Chinese also very important internationally. So, both lists are very similar.

I prefer the languages that United Nations and experts advice us. I speak English, French and some Russian. I study now Arabic. The last one will be Chinese (from the easiest to the most difficult).

That's the way I think.
Newbie   Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:47 pm GMT
practicality, usefulness, and number of non-native speakers ourside its own turfs.
K. T.   Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:06 pm GMT
Choosing a practical (and if possible, beautiful) language is a good idea.
So many people have to learn English at school. I've wondered if I would like English if I had to learn it as a required second language. I guess I was "forced" to learn it as a first language, lol, but I got to choose my other languages.



"I have been telling myself I don't have what it takes to learn music but maybe because of an affinity with language sounds I'm starting to distinguish chords and melodies better day by day. Even the sharps and flats of notes got easier to listen and I stopped using tabbed music. Interestingly my FEAR of tonal languages has disappeared and I started listening the 4 tones in Chinese. Maybe that will lead me to other tonal languages I used to fear like Vietnamese or Thai."-J.C.

I think there is crossover of skills to some extent (the transfer part of my original post), so I would not be surprised if languages helped with your attention to music. I've met many people who had muscial backgrounds who moved to languages or added them. I don't know if Steve K.-"The Linguist" is musical (and I only mention him because he is a polyglot); it seems that he indicated that he was NOT, but I noticed that he LIKES music -"classical" music.

Why is that important? Well, to me, "classical" (Baroque is a better example) music is more complex than pop music when you pare down pop songs to their melodies and and chord progressions. Of course, I don't know what part of classical music Mr. K. likes. I don't know if he simply enjoys it as relaxing or if he enjoys the complexity of it on some level. It's possible to enjoy music in several ways (and not just classical music, of course.), but he ENJOYS it. That means that he likes listening to sounds. (Hi, Steve! If you read this.)

I see that we have feared similar languages, J.C. I have had a fear of Vietnamese for some time. I know I can hear the difference between the tones. It took me about an hour to sort it out, but I wonder if I'd be able to feel at ease enough in the language to really be fluent. I am not a fan of diacritical marks either. I don't mind them in Romanian (which I study off an on.), but....I guess I still have cold feet concerning Vietnamese and I'm ashamed to admit this as Vietnamese is an important second language in my city and it would be useful to know.
I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and spend a couple of hours with it to get better acquainted. Once I get my feet wet, and into deep enough water I can swim, lol. At least the grammar is easy. One of my family members learned Vietnamese and he was not a music lover, so it can be learned even by unmusical people.

It's that if there's a will, there's a way philosophy-motivation or sheer grit.
trinidad   Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:06 pm GMT
I don't think there are many people who don't like music. A lot of people who like classical music are not polyglots at all. I can't see any definite connection.
Lidija   Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:54 pm GMT
your first question was why do some people learn faster than others: well, you have to know your own grammar perfectly to study another language easily. imo
K. T.   Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:15 pm GMT
Trinidad,

There is some overlap of skills that musicians have and skills that polyglots may have. What I notice is discernment between sounds.
With musicians (especially string players), being able to play in tune or sing on pitch is essential. This may seem to come naturally, but probably a lot of musicians heard music over and over as a child-it was a passive language for them and one that got their attention. Some polyglots seem to sort out sounds without too much agony, and not just polyglots, but actors, mimics, impressionists, etc.

Some people may be able to sing, but may not have the eye and hand coordination to be great instrumentalists. So, there are various skill sets in play here. I'm not saying that I have only seen musicians who are polyglots, but I've run across this combination of interests a lot.

I don't see it as a disability, either.
K. T.   Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:36 pm GMT
"your first question was why do some people learn faster than others: well, you have to know your own grammar perfectly to study another language easily. imo "

That's an interesting opinion. I hope others will comment on it too.
For me, learning other languages helped me understand English.
Later, certain languages helped me to understand other languages.
I don't think I know English grammar perfectly, though. A lot of people are probably too polite to tell me where I could use a little work in grammar.