How difficult is German?

fraz   Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:58 pm GMT
German isn't nearly as hard as some people say. Sure, there are a lot of grammar rules but you just have to learn them and apply them. Everything falls into place.

Plus the large shared vocabulary with English is a bonus.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:17 am GMT
@Dfens

Woher weisst du denn als Deutschmuttersprachler wie schwer Deutsch als Fremdsprache zu erlernen ist? Deutsch ist doch sehr logisch. Das sage ich als Englischmuttersprachler. Zwar kompliziert aber auch logisch!

@just me

Just out of interest, what is your native language?
Skinny Latte   Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:09 am GMT
At least, German (word order) is harder than Spanish and Italian, even than French, too.
fraz   Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:45 am GMT
<<Deutsch ist doch sehr logisch. Das sage ich als Englischmuttersprachler. Zwar kompliziert aber auch logisch>>

I agree with that. There's a lot of groundwork to be put in when learning German but if you make the effort, the language is actually quite logical.
--   Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:04 am GMT
I think that most languages are ''logical'' in one way or another.
in my opinion   Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:17 pm GMT
Word order is much more unpredictable and difficult in Italian, Spanish than French. English and French are more rigid and easy
Dfens   Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:42 pm GMT
@ ???

Ich weiß das, weil ich selber Englisch als Fremdsprache gelernt habe und dazu im Vergleich meine eigene Muttersprache viel schwieriger zu erlernen scheint.

Zum Beispiel: Artikel der,die,das. "Der Tisch" aber "Die Wand"...
Warum ist das so? Zumindest mir lässt sich daraus keine Logik erkennen.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:51 pm GMT
@Dfens

Da Deutsch deine eigene Muttersprache ist, bist du einfach nicht in der Lage zu beurteilen, wie schwer es als Fremdsprache zu erlernen ist, genau so wie ich nicht sagen kann, wie schwer Englisch für andere ist. Nur jemand, der die beiden Sprachen als Fremdsprachen lernt, und zwar ein ziemlich hohes Niveau erreicht und nicht nur ein paar Jahre Schulenglisch hinter sich hat, kann das richtig beurteilen.

Zwar sind die Artikeln, und auch der Plural, im Deutschen nicht besonders logisch. Das Erlernen des grammatischen Geschlechtes und Plurales bei vielen Substantiven (nicht bei allen, da diese oft von der Hauptwortendung her natürlich erkennbar sind) kann richtig auf die Nerven gehen. Aber das ist letzendlich eine Frage der Erinnerung. Mit 'logisch' meinte ich hier eher die Regeln der Satzstruktur, z.B. der Wortstellung, Deklensionen (Fälle und Adjektivendungen), Zeiten, Modalverben, des Passivs usw. Solange man diese lernt und richtig verwendet, sollte man meines Erachtens wenig Fehler machen, da es im Deutschen wenig Aussnahme dieser Regeln gibt. Das bedeutet natürlich nicht, dass diese Regeln am Anfang immer leicht zu kapieren sind, das sind sie ja oft nicht, besonders wenn die eigene Muttersprache relativ uninflektiert ist. Und auch wenn man sie verstanden hat, kann man natürlich ohne viel zu üben weiterhin viele Irrtümer machen, da es viele Regeln in Erinnerung zu halten gibt. Aber meiner Meinung nach, wer die Regeln der deutschen Grammatik gut gelernt und verstanden hat, viel übt und vorsichtig vorgeht, sollte Deutsch ziemlich fehlerlos sprechen und schreiben können.

Jetzt darfst du mein Deutsch korrigieren! hehe
fraz   Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:59 pm GMT
There are parts of German that I found hard and others aspects of the language that were a breeze.

The der-die-das thing is awkward, as are the plurals. But when making a comparitive adjective you simply stick -er on the end of the word whereas English is trickier in this respect. Also, "I have ridden the horse" and "I rode the horse" reduces to just "Ich habe das Pferd geritten" while "Ich reite das Pferd" covers three English tenses.

It's all swings and roundabouts.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:22 pm GMT
>>da es im Deutschen wenig Aussnahme dieser Regeln gibt<<

Should be 'Ausnahmen'
English and German as for   Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:19 pm GMT
@???:
uninflektiert: should be unflektiert
Deklensionen: should be Deklinationen
Plurales:should be Plurals
Wenig Ausnahmen: Meintest Du kaum Ausnahmen, oder eher ein paar Ausnahmen? Wenn Du ein paar Ausnahmen meintest, hättest Du dann "wenige Ausnahmen" schreiben müssen. Dasselbe gilt für wenig(e) Fehler

"Aber meiner Meinung nach, wer die Regeln der deutschen Grammatik gut gelernt und verstanden hat, viel übt und vorsichtig vorgeht, sollte Deutsch ziemlich fehlerlos sprechen und schreiben können"

This is not always so direct as you believe. I think that one complicated aspect of German, which you don't have in English, is the usage of accusative and dative pronouns with verbs. For example:
"Ich helfe DIR" (I help YOU) vs. "Ich unterstütze DICH" (I support YOU). Please show me a grammar rule to account for this difference. There is no logical explanation why it is incorrect to say "ich unterstütze DIR" or "ich helfe DICH". And there are many other examples of this kind in German.
Another tricky aspect is the distinction between the accusative and dative usage of the prepositions involving movement and location. This boundary is not always so clearly defined and sometimes you must learn the accusative and dative usage of prepositions and verbs by heart, or you gain a feeling for their correct usage after you have been extensively exposed to the language. Of course you can memorize which verbs and prepositions are used with accusative or dative. But since there is not always a logical explanation for the use of the dative and accusative, it is very difficult to write in German as perfect as a native speaker.
German is also much more complicated in the formation of perfect tenses. In German you use "sein" and "haben", while in English you only use "have". And the usage of "sein" or "haben" is not always logical. For example:
Ich HABE dort gestanden
Ich BIN dort gestanden (South Germany, Switzerland, Austria)


fraz: Also, "I have ridden the horse" and "I rode the horse" reduces to just "Ich habe das Pferd geritten"

@fraz: What about "Ich ritt das Pferd"?

"while "Ich reite das Pferd" covers three English tenses":
This is often more complicated in German than in English because you have to use an adverb or a preposition in order to specify exactly when you are doing something.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:20 pm GMT
Thanks for the corrections. Ironically the endings for 'wenig' do count as one of the few exceptions I can think of. I knew them once, but have got a bit rusty, but should have known it would least have a plural form.

I agree that there are some verbs where it would seem more logical to take the accusative such as 'helfen'. I believe 'folgen' is another one. But you just have to learn them, and once you have, it should stick. Anyway I think in general most verbs that take a direct object in English also do so in German. And what about English? Why 'That is what I said to him' but 'That is what I told him'? And for example it make makes more sense to me that the verb 'zeigen' takes the dative in German, than the accusative in English, as there is always an implied direct object, even if it's not stated. Why doesn't 'I'll show you' in English imply the speaker is going to show the person to whom he is speaking, TO some one else? Of course the implication is 'I'll show you SOMETHING', but still, is it logical?

Another thing, which that leads on to, is the expression of the indirect object in English. As I'm sure you know, it can either be formed with the preposition 'to' or without and different word order. With some verbs you can take your pick as to which to use 'I gave him the book' or 'I gave the book to him'. But not with all. Why can't you say 'I suggested him an idea' or 'I told the truth to him'? Maybe you could just about get away with the latter in SOME contexts, but it sounds decidedly clumsy in general. So English hardly seems consistent either.

As for the accusative and dative involving movement, I don't particularly think it's always that obvious why sometimes you can just get away with 'in' or 'on', but at other times have to use 'into' or 'onto'.

I've heard Germans make mistakes with regard to all the above, some who have lived here for years.

But anyway, no one is saying that there aren't some fiddly rules to be learnt in German, just that once you do learn them, it's a bit like a puzzle, it all fits together.

But as for the tenses, come on. True, German uses both 'sein' and 'haben', but most of the time it is verbs of movement or some kind of altered state where 'sein' is required. The progressive form in English obviously represents a great, if not the greatest problem to native speakers of German. I don't see how SOMETIMES having to use an adverb makes it more complicated. 'Ich lese gerade' is much more complicated than 'I'm reading'? Really? And you wouldn't always have to use an adverb, where English uses the progressive. And what about the much greater distinction between simple past/perfect in English as well as the difference between 'will/going to'? The only thing I have really seen to rival the complexity of the English tense aspect system in German is a kind of progressive form used in some parts of Northern Germany i.e. Ich war am Schlafen. However I still don't think it is as widely used and certainly isn't required for some one wishing to learn standard German. And it certainly doesn't seem to help the average German speaker get a good grasp of the English progressive.

And what about the emphatic forms in English? 'I did see it' as opposed to 'I saw it'. I know it is often equivalent to something like 'Ich habe es doch gesehen', but still this is definitely an aspect of English which is more complex, not least because it involves a change in morphology.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:27 pm GMT
>>fraz: Also, "I have ridden the horse" and "I rode the horse" reduces to just "Ich habe das Pferd geritten"

@fraz: What about "Ich ritt das Pferd"? <<

But you can mostly get away with 'Ich habe das Pferd geritten' in spoken German, can't you? For example, where English would have to take the simple i.e. 'I rode the horse yesterday', German would still allow 'Ich habe gestern das Pferd geritten'. And of course you could still be saying 'Ich habe das Pferd geritten, where English might demand 'I was riding the horse', 'I have been riding the horse', 'I did ride the horse'. Granted you might need to throw in a 'doch' or 'gerade' or some other adverb, but I can't see how that is more complicated.
???   Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:15 pm GMT
By the way Dfens, your English is indeed very good. I only spotted a couple of minor errors, and a couple of things, that while not totally wrong, don't sound quite native. And I don't mean to sound as though I don't think German is complicated, or that I don't think learners are likely on average to make a great deal of grammatical mistakes. I just think that if you learn the rules, convoluted as they often are, and apply them carefully, your German would be reasonably good. But of course when you're speaking quickly, it is hard to remember all the rules, unless you have indeed been exposed to the language for a long time and it comes naturally.

Have you heard of the English guy Ross Anthony? I believe he won the German version of I'm a Celebrity, get me out of here. If so, what do you think of his German? I have listened to him on Youtube, and am very impressed with his German, as to me he seems to speak very quickly and fluently, and sound quite native in a way. However after listening a bit more carefully, I noticed that he seems to make quite a lot of basic grammatical errors like using the wrong gender and the wrong case or adjective endings. What do Grmans think of his German?
Tracy from England   Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:39 pm GMT
I think his German is quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq0Wa-fV-mo