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What does CAPITALISM mean to you? Do you like it or not?
"The poverty in India is unimaginably enormous. It is on the same level as the worst of Subsaharan Africa. "
Nobody tries to deny that. But you can't compare the whole of India with any Subsaharan state because it has a growing middle class and an enormous economy. India makes stuff and does things; collectively, it's not dirt-poor. I used it an example of a mixed success story.
"So capitalist dictatorship is just as bad as communist dictatorship? So then should we be blaming dictatorship rather than communism? Has there ever been a non-dictatorship communist nation? Maybe that would be a good system... "
Of course a capitalistc dictatorship is bad, since an authoritarian form of government is always detrimental to its people. A "non-dictatorship communist nation" cannot exist because the so-called communist government must use force to retain its grip on power. In a system that allows only for one party to exist, there must be a way to make sure that people with different views and beliefs do not disrupt its functioning, which, as history has demonstrated, always involved the use of force. Violence, incarceration, murder, fear, repression. Can these things be used to build a prosperous state of happy citizens? Not in our century.
"Jasper, what other systems do you have in mind? If you will mention anything akin to communism, I will promtly ask you to re-read "The Gulag Archipelago."
Guest, I read with intense interest "The Gulag Archipelago". It sounded horrible, so I asked my coworkers about it.
The trouble is, of course, that it only shows one face of communism. It doesn't show the side of communism where everybody had the right to a job, the right to be free from crime, the right to free medical care, the right to housing, etc.
Anyway, my coworkers all agreed that the worst thing about Communism wasn't the repressive aspects of it, but more mundane things, like "everybody had plenty of money, but there was nothing to buy; you had to have connections to buy tangerines."
One coworker elaborated. She said,"In America, when your daughter gets married, the big worry is 'how the Hell am I going to pay for this?'" It seemed horrible to her that people were getting second mortgages on their houses, etc, just to pay for a wedding.
By contrast, she said in the Soviet Union, money wasn't even a vague worry. Rather, it was,"Who am I going to get to do our hair? Who am I going to find to make the dresses? To make the cakes?"
Good folks, I'm here to tell you that a whole lot of what we Westerners were taught about Communism really was propaganda.
Anyway, back to "The Gulag Archipelago": it was agreed that the "author must have been guilty of some crime". Which he was...
<<Nobody tries to deny that. But you can't compare the whole of India with any Subsaharan state because it has a growing middle class and an enormous economy. India makes stuff and does things; collectively, it's not dirt-poor. I used it an example of a mixed success story. >>
Well, the USSR was not dirt poor collectively either. The USSR made things and did things. People got education, free houses and all kinds of things. They went to space. Yes, it was still crap compared to Europe or the USA, but it was no worse than India today, collectively. It was more equal than India today, that is for sure.
Guest2:
Oh. By the way, I am beginning to think that a mixed, socialist economy such as Sweden or Japan is the way to go. I don't know what takes place in China but I would like to hear.
Capitalism as practiced in the United States is heartless. Survival of the fittest, and if you fail, and end up on the street, "it's your own fault, because you didn't do X, Y, or Z". Never mind that Mother Suzie developed MS and can no longer work, much less pay her medical bills. "It's still your own fault because I say so."
Guest2, I thought humankind had progressed beyond that kind of thinking.
Jasper, you're talking to somebody who was born in the Soviet Union. Take whatever your coworkers told you with a grain of salt. Yes, some people had a relatively good salary. But many, many people did not.
In the Soviet Union, when you're daughter was getting married, it was likely that she and her would be husband would live in the same apartment as you. So would their children, until it would be your daughter's family's turn to get an apartment of their own.
Your daughter would have to worry about where she would get a nice wedding dress and what she would wear afterwards. Most likely, you would have to spend a lot of time looking for fabrics and make your own clothes if you didn't want to look exactly like every other woman on the street.
Yes, your daughter probably had a good education (hopefully she wasn't Jewish; otherwise, there would be problems with getting into top schools). Yes, she might have had good medical care, if you knew the right doctors who would do favors for you. Was as your daughter allowed to travel outside of the Soviet Union to non-communist nations? No. Did she have access to recently published academic materials in foreign languages? No. Was she allowed to express her discontent with the government? Sure, she could write a novel, which would have to be "published" by an underground organization that would then distribute it under the fear of arrest. Horrible things would happen to her if any of that happened before Stalin's death. Nothing pleasant would come of it if it happened afterwards.
You're right that the Soviet Union wasn't as terrible as the Cold War propaganda machine made it out to be. A large part of its population wasn't politically repressed; neither was it interested in any sublime concepts like liberty. A few people who had good jobs actually lived somewhat well. But there was nothing good in the overall system. It was build on blood and lies, and it began to rot by the 1970s.
"Capitalism as practiced in the United States is heartless. Survival of the fittest, and if you fail, and end up on the street, "it's your own fault, because you didn't do X, Y, or Z". Never mind that Mother Suzie developed MS and can no longer work, much less pay her medical bills. "It's still your own fault because I say so." "
You're exaggerating. Let's be honest and acknowledge that many of the people who ended up on the street did not know what prudent budgeting was all about. Just listen to the ridiculous calls that Suzy Orman sometimes gets!
We can bring up credit card companies and other embodiments of earthly evil. I wholeheartedly agree with you that capitalism needs to be regulated so that all kinds of bastards wouldn't exploit other people through its loopholes. But it doesn't mean we need to replace capitalism with anything else. Just modify it, cut off some of its rough edges and put warning signs on the sharp ends that can't be done away with.
<<Jasper, you're talking to somebody who was born in the Soviet Union. Take whatever your coworkers told you with a grain of salt. Yes, some people had a relatively good salary. But many, many people did not. >>
So, since you're American, I should take your words with a grain of salt.
<,Yes, some people had a relatively good salary. But many, many people did not. >>
Many Americans have a good salary, but many do not.
<<In the Soviet Union, when you're daughter was getting married, it was likely that she and her would be husband would live in the same apartment as you.>>
Separate houses for separate couples is by no means universal and is a relatively modern concept. It is more cultural than because of communism.
<<Most likely, you would have to spend a lot of time looking for fabrics and make your own clothes if you didn't want to look exactly like every other woman on the street. >>
The same in America today, voluntarily. But the difference is that the clothes that everyone wears costs a fortune. People want to look like every other woman.
<<Yes, your daughter probably had a good education (hopefully she wasn't Jewish; otherwise, there would be problems with getting into top schools).>>
In America: Yes, your daughter probably had a good education (hopefully she wasn't Black; otherwise, there would be problems with getting into top schools).
<<Yes, she might have had good medical care, if you knew the right doctors who would do favors for you>>
In America: Yes, she might have had good medical care, if you have a lot of cash to pay the right doctors
The stuff you say aobut repression is true. There's no denying that.
Anyway, I don't support communism. I just think that Americans need to stop looking at it like it is the evil of all evils. Just look at it level-headedly like any other failed system, like monarchy or whatever ...
In my opinion, capitalism wins because greed is more powerful than brotherly love.
"Your daughter would have to worry about where she would get a nice wedding dress and what she would wear afterwards. Most likely, you would have to spend a lot of time looking for fabrics and make your own clothes if you didn't want to look exactly like every other woman on the street. "
Actually, Guest2, your words tally exactly with what my sources are saying.
They all thought they had plenty of money, but nothing to buy, without connections, which was the single biggest issue for them.
One of my sources told me that if you had some little something "on the side", you had quite a good life under Communism. Typing papers for someone, selling dresses, etc. Life for people with just one principal job was harder, she asserts.
The travel overseas issue wasn't so big an issue for them, because they could travel all over the Communist world. The Communist world at the time was 1/3 of the entire world—not a small area.
Guest2, are you living in the United States? Have you seen what's going on here? It's not pretty. While there have admittedly been people who've deserved what's happened to them, there are many other people who really are innocent victims.
The devil's advocate misinterpreted my words; I was born in the Soviet Union. And yes, I currently live in the US. What's happening here is nothing in comparison to any of what happened in the Soviet Union, whether during its creation, existence, or collapse. You don't know what it was like. Neither do I, honestly, since I was too young to witness it. But its ghost still meanders over Russia, and it passes through me whenever I visit it. It's a very disheartening and even disgusting sensation.
If you're interested in Soviet lifestyle, watch "ÐœÐ°Ð»ÐµÐ½ÑŒÐºÐ°Ñ Ð’ÐµÑ€Ð°" ("Malenkaya Vera," or "Little Faith," with Faith being a girl's name) on youtube. It's a film from the late 80s that perfectly captures the discontent of Soviet citizens. The whole film is uploaded on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROcT_slJzdo
If you're interested in alternatives to the American system, feel free to explore those of Western Union. Do not turn to the Soviet Union as a possible model, unless you want to study what not to do.
It goes without saying that I meant Western Europe.
Money, greed, capitalism, and other such things are something that you can't eradicate or live without, whether you like it or not.
When the Berlin Wall fell 20 years ago, did anyone from West Germany exultingly ran to East Germany, trampling over each other? :-) I believe the throng travelled in quite the opposite direction. :-)
The wish to make money while retaining some dignity and making sure that your children have a good future is something that unites the majority of humanity. A system that understands that and makes it possible to attain is not communism or whatever else you want to call it...
"If you're interested in alternatives to the American system, feel free to explore those of Western Union."
Guest2, I agree with you.
I am looking at Sweden or Japan as a model of a political system that seems to meet the needs of everybody.
I have become very disillusioned with American-style capitalism because it leaves too many people out in the cold.
poor americans dont even have medical care, a human right.
and Osama-Obama hopes to give them free medical care, but it will never happen in the greedy USandA jungle where dog its dog.
capitalism and communism are two extremes that have to be eradicated, look at the paranoid and brainwashed americans feeling morbidly threaten by everything that sounds communist. They are scared to death, and they were told to get scared, the same as the communists were told to be scared by imperialism capitalism. Best way is the central wing the Socialists or the best way is a N E W S Y S T E M.
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