Why are phoneticians so confident?

Young-Won Kim   Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:17 am GMT
In Korea (and other countries), there are many books and many people/universities, which so distinctly/variously/differently (from each other) suggest how to pronounce English. Most (English-phonetics) people seem to be so assured of their own theories, since they have completed the pronunciation test (but, what if improperly/imperfectly?) over their own theories (at least) with (none other’s than) their own mouth; so, they seem to even deny any hearing of other people’s (different) views or any (open/public) review on whether their self tests etc. are really right/meaningful or not. And up to now there has seemed no prominent one which definitely overwhelms theirs, since any one could not have ultimately/alternatively suggested any (decisively) better/best or final one at all.
After all, no difference among them, in the fact that they can/would not deny other views (very or quite different from his own) effectively at all, which fact shows that we can not find any (really) good/useful book/theory on English pronunciation in the world, at present. If so, how efficiently/effectively (and satisfactorily perfectly, if possible) can Koreans (who have serious English-hearing difficulty/handicap) learn to speak/hear English well?

As for me, I have continued to fruitfully study English pronunciation and greatly/meaningfully change my views over the last two/three years; and before finding the new fact(s), I had been strongly confident that the old one will be right since I had also completed the speaking test over the old one with (none other’s than) my own mouth; but/though (very/quite regretfully) based on the (eventually) wrong/imperfect methods, or roughly/imperfectly etc. I (at last) possibly feel the limitation of ability, so as to perceive/find that the old self-testing method(s) on articulation were wrong/incorrect/etc., only after/when the new (alternative) right one(s) are found or the testing is practiced more right/correctly/precisely/completely/perfectly, seriously/carefully not roughly; I think from my experience.

(Forum) Group: Comparative phonetics

The (comparative) study (in the structure/mode/way of phonetics, pronunciation, articulation, or whatever; that is, in the difference of speaking mouth postures and resultant speaking weight/force center points) between English/foreign languages and the mother tongue, for better (more practical/effective/smooth) hearing/speaking of English/foreign languages.

Please visit the following site and click/participate the group (board/description) “comparative phonetics” (below.)
* academici admission; free of charge

http://www.academici.com/net/lingistics.
http://www.academici.com/hp/YoungWon_Kim
ygwnkm@yahoo.co.kr
Mxsmanic   Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:07 am GMT
You don't need any special method or magic to learn pronunciation. A study of phonetics in its basic elements can be very helpful to you because it shows you how to pronounce specific sounds in a language and how to put them together, and it provides insight into how people produce and understand speech. However, it need not be an in-depth study.

In learning French, I found that phonetic transcription was a tremendous help, and books that described how to actually articulate sounds (as opposed to CDs that simply say "listen and repeat") were also very useful and accelerated my learning greatly. I'm convinced that I developed better pronunciation faster by studying some phonetics. But there's a point of diminishing returns, and going overboard in the study of phonetics is a waste of time, unless you are studying it purely for its own sake.

As for phoneticians and linguists in general, they can be very nearly ignored; they live in a rarefied atmosphere of academic isolation, and often they seem to have no clue when it comes to teaching or learning a language in any practical way.
Travis   Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:00 am GMT
Now just how or why did Brennus, of all people, become a moderator all of a sudden?!
Kirk   Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:11 am GMT
<<Occasionally, Korean and English speaking people will have trouble understanding each other. About one month ago, I ordered a sandwich in a deli in Renton, Washington owned by Korean immigrants. I said that I wanted a "tuna sandwich on RYE bread" and had to repeat my self because the Korean lady taking the order wasn't sure if I said "RYE" or "WHITE" (bread). However these kind of misunderstandings are not too common, thank goodness.>>

Yes, one time in of one my ESL classes a Korean student kept on referring to what sounded like "paper" when talking about a recipe. We finally realized she meant to say "pepper" but was unable to distinguish between /e/ and /E/ in production until her error was pointed out.

<<As for phoneticians and linguists in general, they can be very nearly ignored; they live in a rarefied atmosphere of academic isolation, and often they seem to have no clue when it comes to teaching or learning a language in any practical way.>>

Hahaha. Yes, out of all people, it's clearly....drumroll.....*linguists* who have a big problem with learning languages (?!) and in producing practical research and information which can help others learn languages (so, who exactly came up with and wrote the phonetic transcriptions that helped you learn French?). Nice try at a shot at linguists/linguistics, Mxsmanic, but no cigar.
Young-Won Kim   Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:08 am GMT
Mr. Brennus

>>I don't know - - - more of them who are Europeans I would think.

When I browse internet, American (IPA) phoneticians like John Wells & Peter Ladefoged of <http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/wells/wells.html> seem to have the world (including Europeans) at IPA’s beck and call.... But I think IPA’s phonetics theories have great errors.

>>Nevertheless, a linguist - - - vain to a greater or lesser degree. Occasionally, Korean and English - - -.

Korean language is so different in pronunciation from English and most other languages; therefore, Koreans should study English phonetics.... But as well as the world phonetics have so many great problems, the phoneticians refuse any review on their theories.
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Mr. Mxsmanic

>>- - - need not be an in-depth study.... - - - books that described how to actually articulate sounds (as opposed to CDs that simply say "listen and repeat") were also very useful and accelerated my learning greatly.

Please describe “how to actually articulate sounds”..... CDs and tapes are bever helpful to Koreans, since Koreans can not mimic English after CDs..... I would like to compare my theories with theories.

>>- - -a waste of time, unless you are studying it purely for its own sake.

Most people do not like to study phonetics and the likes..... Koreans inevitably study it.

>>As for phoneticians and linguists in general, - - - no clue when it comes to teaching or learning a language in any practical way.

Then from whom do Koreans learn how to speak/hear English?
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Mr. Travis Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:00 am GMT

>>Now just how or why did Brennus, of all people, become a moderator all of a sudden?!

Appreciated.
==================
Kirk

<<Occasionally, Korean and English - - - not too common, thank goodness.>>

Yes, one time in of one my ESL classes a Korean student - - -.

<<As for phoneticians and linguists in general, - - - in any practical way.>>

Hahaha. Yes, out of all people, it's clearly....drumroll.....*linguists* who have a big problem with learning languages (?!) and in producing practical research and information which can help others learn languages (so, who exactly came up with and wrote the phonetic transcriptions that helped you learn French?). Nice try at a shot at linguists/linguistics, Mxsmanic, but no cigar.
=================
Gentlemen!
Please visit the following site and click the group (board/description) “comparative phonetics” (below.)
I await your comments.

* academici admission; free of charge

http://www.academici.com/net/lingistics.
http://www.academici.com/hp/YoungWon_Kim

ygwnkm@yahoo.co.kr
Guest   Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:00 pm GMT
Omg... Why is Brennus a mod? What happened to MJD?
Tiffany   Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:12 pm GMT
Oy. Brennus is a mod. When did that happen? Congrats Brennus.
garans   Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:11 pm GMT
When people speak distinctly - it is not difficult to tell words.
But when they use fluent language, they change sounds in different manner and here most problems arise.

Different languages have different rules - what are background sounds and what are meaningful sounds.

Speaking of myself - I often take background sounds for main sounds and often cannot hear meaningful ones (or replace them with anothers).

I know that the main solution is to learn phrases, contexts, flow of thoughts. But it takes time, especially if you don't live in an English-speaking country.
Young-Won Kim   Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:24 am GMT
mr. garans

>>- - - different rules - what are background sounds and what are meaningful sounds.

I am talking on how to understand/unify the differences of voices

>>- - - to learn phrases, contexts, flow of thoughts. But - - - .

What if (some people) unable to hear the phrases/contexts/etc.
Why not visit the following site and click/read the group (board/description) “comparative phonetics” (below.) * academici admission; free of charge

http://www.academici.com/net/lingistics.
http://www.academici.com/hp/YoungWon_Kim
andre in usa   Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:39 am GMT
Is mjd still a mod? I sure hope so...
Lazar   Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:52 am GMT
<<Now just how or why did Brennus, of all people, become a moderator all of a sudden?!>>

Not a clue! He's an...interesting choice...
Kirk   Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:39 am GMT
<<Not a clue! He's an...interesting choice...>>

<<Is mjd still a mod? I sure hope so...>>

'Yes' to both of those...
Mxsmanic   Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:41 am GMT
Koreans are no different from any other ESL students, irrespective of what they might like to believe.

Phoneticians and linguists do not usually teach ESL, for much the same reasons that nuclear physicists do not run nuclear power plants. However, you can learn a language from any native speaker who has an ability to teach and has some reasonable knowledge of grammar. It's no coincidence that language teachers in private language schools are generally more likely to be native speakers with moderate training rather than non-native speakers with extensive credentials. Berlitz hires people directly off the street (provided that they are native speakers), gives them some minimal training, and still achieves success at teaching people spoken languages.

Koreans can mimic sounds based on CDs just as anyone else can; Koreans who refuse to believe this, however, are likely to never acquire fluency in English. When I mentioned describing how to produce sounds, though, I meant precisely that: a description (written or spoken) of how to configure the vocal tract in order to produce a given sound ("hold the tip of your tongue near the ridge behind your upper teeth," or some such). It can be difficult to guess proper articulation based only on hearing a sound, and a simple explanation of how to produce it (as opposed to an acoustic model) can save a lot of time. This requires a teacher who knows how she is producing various sounds though, and so it's not always an option. You can read books to find descriptions, if you cannot find a teacher who knows them.

From what I've read, it seems that Koreans have a mountain of preconceived ideas concerning ESL, and that these ideas cripple them in their attempts to learn English.
garans   Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:03 am GMT
Young-Won Kim

Is "lingistic" a word for "linguistics" or this spelling reflect your phonetic interpretation? :)
Young-Won Kim   Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:03 am GMT
MR. Mxsmanic

>>Koreans are no different from any other ESL students, irrespective of what they might like to believe.

Not Koreans but professionals can find/understand the difference..... Do you think that you are professional?

>>Phoneticians and linguists do not usually teach ESL, - - -.

Then, what do they do?

>>However, - - - any native speaker who has an ability to teach and has some reasonable knowledge of grammar.

Most USA ESL teachers say that East Asians know more on English grammar than themselves.

It's no coincidence that - - -.

No comment.

Koreans can mimic sounds based on CDs just as anyone else can; Koreans who refuse to believe this, however, are likely to never acquire fluency in English.

I (and most people, I think, frankly speaking) do not want fluency.

When I mentioned describing how to produce sounds, though, - - - .

Do you know how to produce sounds using the vocal tract? What do you mean by the vocal tract? I think that the word of vocal mechanism is better than the vocal tract.

>>This requires a teacher who knows how she is producing various sounds though, and so it's not always an option. You can read books to find descriptions, if you cannot find a teacher who knows them. From what I've read, it seems that Koreans have a mountain of preconceived ideas concerning ESL, and that these ideas cripple them in their attempts to learn English.

As you say, when the so-called phoneticians with research experience can not suggest an effective way, what do you mean by “teacher” and how can we find an able teacher? Rather, it will be better that Korean myself find the ultimate method on how to produce voice.

mr. garans

>>Is "lingistic" a word for "linguistics" or this spelling reflect your phonetic interpretation? :)

http://www.academici.com/net/lingistics.
http://www.academici.com/hp/YoungWon_Kim

The person who made/wrote the above URL is an English of “academici”, not me, though I and many other gentlepersons often misspell, which most people (except you) do not mind so much when discussing seriously with knowledge.