/i:/ and /i/ is confusing

Clari   Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:09 am GMT
In the IPA,
seat is /si:t/
sit is /sit/

I've learned that to pronounce ea (or ee), you need to pull your month towards your ear, just like you are making a smile. While pronouncing /i/, you just need to slightly open you month, and there is no smile.

So the /i:/ and /i/ are fundamentally different, then why use /i:/ to represent the pronunciation of ea? It is misleading! since people may think /i:/ is just a prolonged /i/, and people may tend to pronounce /i:/ in the same way as /i/, just by prolonging the pronunciation time.

So it seems to me that /i:/ is a bad choice to represent ea sound. Will it be better if we can find a new symbol to represent ea sound?

And how about other pairs of similar sounds. like
(1)
blue /u:/
bush /u/

(2)
call
hot

My question is:
In the above two examples, are the vowel pronunciation the same except that one is short, another is long? Or is there fundamental difference just like the /i:/ and /i/? Can someone clarify this? Thanks a lot!
Pedro   Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:54 am GMT
Well, vowel length is an allophone in some lects.

beat bi:d
bead bit
bit bIt
bid bI.t

There is another one: half-length is represented by '.' .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length

If you are learning General American English, just forget about these things.
Uriel   Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:39 am GMT
blue /u:/
bush /u/

There are actually 3 U's. One is the classic long U or OO sound of blue. One is the short U of cut. Then there is a third U that is an odd, in-between sound, which you hear in bush, push, foot, cook, look, took, soot, put, etc. They are all three distinctly different to a native speaker. I don't know how common the short U and the thrid U are in other languages, but I see how they might give you some trouble if you native tongue only has the long U.


(2)
call
hot

Okay, this is a dialectical thing. For me, call and hot have the same vowel. That's because I have the cot-caught merger. Most English speakers, however, will make a distinction. To me (and remember, I don't naturally make this sound, but here goes!), a cot-caught UNmerged speaker has a much tenser vowel in call, as if they are starting out saying CU (long U) and then segue into an AW, with lips rounded. A New Yorker sounds like she's saying CUWALL, whereas an Englishwoman would sound almost like she was saying "cool" (Almost, not quite....almost like cool crossed with coal.) It's hard for me to replicate, let alone explain, so maybe someone with that type of accent can help out.

As for hot, I say it with my mouth pretty open -- haht, same vowel as father. Brits seem to say it with their mouths more closed -- as if they were trying to say AH with their mouths poised for an O. Again, a weird noise that I can't make. Suffice it to say that their call and their hot do sound different. Mine sound the same. Try for whatever works best for you.
Leasnam   Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:58 pm GMT
<<There are actually 3 U's>>

I think there's at least a couple more: the 'u' sound in 'culminate', the 'u' sound in 'wolf', the 'u' sound in 'full', and perhaps the 'u' in 'fur'.

To many English speakers, these may be thought of as variants or even subsets of the other 3 mentioned by Uriel, but if you actually listen to them, they are distictly different. They are being pulled by the sounds around them (the 'l's and the 'r's).
Biboka   Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:52 pm GMT
In singing it's difficult to say, I heard Mariah sing: I can't /li:v/
in her song ''Without you''
Milton   Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:10 pm GMT
(2)
call
hot
////

In many parts of the US (most Western states excluding a rare part of California: S.Francisco), as well in some parts of Eastern Canada (the city of St. John's) both words have /ɑ:/, so
CALL and DOLL rhyme /kɑ:l ~ dɑ:l/

a) but you can have the rounded pronunciations of CALL, HOT: in Canada, Pittsburgh, and Valspeak.

b) some people from cot/caught unmerged regions have unrounded vowel /ɑ/ in ALL, CALL, BALL etc...

Some sound clips:

1. a Californian song with many open unrounded vowels (''long, call'' with /ɑ/):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3eAzL6qsL4




2. commercial from St. John's [Canada] with ALL NIGHT LONG (''all'' and ''long'' have both the unrounded vowel: [ɑ] ):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MKPlsQuTjg


3. A Chicago commercial with [ɑ] in ''all'', ''superball'', ''call''
(this is due to Northern Cities vowel shift)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtbbWlaJC-k




Old English had [ɑ] in ''all, long'' (compare with ALLES, LANG in German), and this pronunciation is still used in some Scottish accents/dialects.
So, it's a ''what goes around, comes around'' thing ;)



BTW, the newest American dictionary favors the
unrounded pronunciation [ɑ]

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/call
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/long
Johnny   Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:37 pm GMT
<<
In the IPA,
seat is /si:t/
sit is /sit/
>>


Dude, you got it wrong. In IPA it should be like this:

seat is generally like /sit/
sit is generally like /sɪt/
seed is like /siːd/
sid is like /sɪːd/

Dictionaries might use different transcriptions that might look like IPA, but they are not.
stven   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:27 am GMT
>>a) but you can have the rounded pronunciations of CALL, HOT: in Canada, Pittsburgh, and Valspeak.<<

the examples you gave help for hearing the unrounded vowel, but is it possible someone could link to an example where the rounded vowel is used?

much appreciated
Milton   Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:59 am GMT
but is it possible someone could link to an example where the rounded vowel is used?
/

Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj6DOaIhD-I

Lights is a singer from Canada,

she has a rounded vowel in fOllow at 0:22 (unlike most US accents including NYC/NJ accent),
and has a rounded vowel in gOne at 0:46 (unlike most Western US accents, but similar to NYC/NJ accent)

So, her accent is a weird mix, very unpredictable/Canadian
Milton   Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:20 am GMT
Now compare it to this song by another Canadian [Avril Lavigne] who has been living in California long enough to pick up the Californian accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cw70ukoHEg

Unrounded vowel /ɑ/ in Always, gOne, wAlk this time, as expected in standard Californian.



---
As for non-standard Californian (with California vowel shift), there's Valspeak, which is not really a dialect but a fad or sociolect, teenage girls have it until they go to collage then they switch to the normal Californian accent, for example Tori Spelling and Jenna Elfman sounded very ValleyGirl in their teens and early 20ies, and now they sound like a normal Californian girl.


The character of Tiffany Blum-Deckler in MTV's Daria uses Valspeak, and also that MTV reality show with hair dressing with a NewJersey born girl exaggerating the Valley Girl accent ''oh my [gooo:d]'' haha, I forgot her name hahaha, but she is very unbearable.
Tom   Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:53 pm GMT
Clari,

Read what Johnny has written. Then take a look at the IPA chart:
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm

BTW,
sid is transcribed /sɪd/ , not /sɪːd/
stven   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:13 pm GMT
seems the way Lights says them is closer to what i use, compared to Lavigne, even though what i hear from Lights, still sounds unrounded to my ears.