Were Oxford and Cambridge originally public schools?

General American   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:51 am GMT
When being established, were Oxford and Cambridge University state-chartered/state-funding schools(what we call "public schools" in America)? Or were they independent schools(private schools) in the first place?

When did Oxford and Cambridge become state-funding(public) schools respectively?

And why do British people call a private school a "public school"?
fraz   Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:43 pm GMT
I think the term "public school" originally meant that any member of the public could apply, providing funding arrangements were in place.
Witness   Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:12 pm GMT
<<<And why do British people call a private school a "public school"? >>>

Probably the same reason why government funded organisations are called "Non Governmental Organisations and the 'Ministry of War' is called the "Ministry of Defence"

Its not politically correct to say so, but there is something called 'Right Wing Political Correctness too you know. It dwarfs the Lefty version.
JohnE3nglish   Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:12 pm GMT
"Its not politically correct to say so, but there is something called 'Right Wing Political Correctness too you know. It dwarfs the Lefty version."

Bollocks

- A right winger (center by American standards)
JuanA3merican   Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:06 pm GMT
Eat shit, you denialist chlamydia carrying right-wing politically correct pedo.
Damian in Edinburgh   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:29 pm GMT
The Universities of Cambridge and Oxford were founded over 1,100 years ago, not long after St Augustine introduced Christianity into this country -Britain. They are therefore among the oldest seats of learning not only in this country but in the world generally.

Originally they were public schools in effect in that they catered for the intelligentsia of the day, often linked directly to the Church and religion generally, and were dedicated to the acquisition of and the promotion of knowledge in all kinds oif literary subject apart from theology.

In time both Cambridge and Oxford developed greatly into very prominent and highly prestigious centres of learning, and many of the colleges making up the two Universities - currently over 75 between the two of them - became very well known in their own right. To this day many of these colleges reflect the influence of the Church and religion in their foundation some 600 to 800 years ago or so.....names such as Trinity, Jesus, Corpus Christi, Christ's, Christchurch, Magdalen (Cambridge) and Magdalene (Oxford), Emmanuel and so on. Others include the famous King's, in Cambridge, often pictured across the expanse of greenery known as The Backs, and the scene of the equally famous Christmas Eve Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols each year.

Then we have Peterhouse, Ruskin, Fitzwilliam, Pembroke, Gonville and Caius, Clare, Girton and so on.

Both Universities attracted all their students from the more affluent and more advantaged sections of society, as well as the aristocracy, during much of their existence, until the early to mid 20th century when suitable students from less highly placed backgrounds were admitted in quite large numbers, and nowadays anybody found to meet all the entry requirements, irrespective of their social backgrounds, can gain entry to study at either Universities. In fact, the current Labour Government, as is its wont, has fallen over itself to ensure more students from this social background gaind admission, often to the detriment of more highly qualified students from more advantaged sectors of society.

Anyway - read more here if you are interested:

The University of Cambridge:

http://www.cam.ac.uk/univ/history/

The University of Oxford

http://www.picturesofengland.com/history/oxford-university-history.html

The English public school is the opposite of the American version. When grammar schools were first introduced into England they were intended to be used by the lay pubic, and survived financially by means of endowments and the fees charged for tuition....hence the term "public schools", and today's public schools in England are still maintained by means of endowments, fees and donations and subscriptions from private, non-Governmental subscriptions.

Again, England's public schools are very well known - such as Eton, Harrow, Marlborough, Charterhouse, Westminster, Rugby (as featured in "John Brown's Schooldays"), Winchester, Clifton, Cheltenham, Malvern and so on.

What the Americans call "public schools" are known as "State schools" over here, maintained entirely by Government funding.

Scotland of course has its own version of public schools.

Many of England's most prominent politicians and military leaders throughout its history attended public schools, Sir Winston Churchill included, and the current leader of the UK's Conservative Party (or the Tory Party to give it its original name, now often used derogatively by some people) - David Cameron - was educated at Eton, which is not too far from one of the Queen's homes - Windsor Castle....you can probably see one from the other on a clear day.

It is said that the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 was won on the playing fields of Eton....you can easily work out for yourself the meaning of that.

Although I think that both the cities of Cambridge and Oxford are really beautiful architecturally, I think that Oxford is the most aesthetically pleasing.....it's beautiful from any direction as you approach it, but especially from the Abingdon side - Oxford was not called the City of Dreaming Spires for nothing!

Both cities have an amazing atmosphere - all that intellect mixed with pleasureable social pursuits - you have to be pretty bonkers to jump off Magdalene Bridge right into the drink at dawn on May Day - or pissed....which is more likely the case, but that's tradition for you.
Cooper   Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:12 am GMT
<The Universities of Cambridge and Oxford were founded over 1,100 years ago, not long after St Augustine introduced Christianity into this country>

What is your source, Damian?

The usual reckoning is 12th/13th century. (Cambridge officially celebrated its "800th birthday" only last year.)

Also, Augustine died in about 604; so 1,100 years ago could not be described as "not long after" that date.
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:15 am GMT
Alright, Cooper, we won't split hairs on this one......on the issue of the exact foundation of both Oxford and Cambridge Universities you are correct...both did not really come into existence in anything like the form we see today until the 12th/early 13th century as you say, but as the Oxford link indicates the desire for advanced learning in England took hold a lot earlier.

Supposedly it was England's King Alfred the Great, King of Wessex and later the so called Overlord of England (the one who, in legend, was supposed to have burnt the cakes and subsequently got an earful from a very angry lady) set the ball rolling towards the establishment of a centre of learning and the advancement of knowledge in his area....he was born in 849 in the Royal Palace in the town of Wantage, which is quite close to Oxford, and where a massive statue of Alfred exists today right in the middle of the market square in Wantage.

The Anglo Saxon language was gradually evolving and developing into Old English at this time and Alfred, himself a very scholarly individual, took an immense interest in the learning of the English of the time and actively encouraged its use in the form of writing in an academic sense, and it was around the year 872 that he, along with a group of monks, set about the establishment of some kind of learning centre in Oxford for the promotion of advanced knowledge and study, therefore laying the foundation of Oxford as a centre of learning.

The actual foundation of Oxford University took place some 300 years or so later, but you could well say that it was Alfred himself who laid the very first stone in the establishment of the future University.

It's also true that the former Roman monk St Augustine died in 640, after he had become the very first Archbishop of Canterbury, and after the conversion of the Ango Saxons in England to the Roman See and the Church of Rome, and to the Roman Catholic faith which later became the established religion in England.

Admittedly the "not long after" bit in relation to the 1,110 years ago was wrong, so let's say "in the course of time" and be done with it. Even so both Cambridge and Oxford became fully established Universities some 800 years ago at the very least and in anyone's book that's quite some time ago.

The last thing I want to do is to distort facts, but I do admit to enjoying a wee bit of hyperbole now and again, but in the process try to ensure that all the basic facts as stated are just that...facts and not fiction.

I have been to both Cambridge and Oxford....co-incidentally both are situated roughly 52 miles away (83kms) from Central London...one to the north and the other to the west, both easily accessible by motorways as well as fast and frequent trains and motorways, both are very attractive places architectually and culturally, both exude an air of Academe, yet at the same time both are quite different from each other in some ways.

Oxford is not far from the Cotswold Hills and the rolling downlands (ie low hills) of Oxfordshire and Berkshire, while the countryside around Cambridge is literally as flat as a pancake with the "flat as a tabletop" Fenland countryside situated just to the north of Cambridge, some of which is actually below sea level ....and incidentally, today is Pancake Day, aka Shrove Tuesday, and Lent begins tomorrow, Ash Wednesday.

Freshly made pancakes with fresh blueberries and creme fraiche are out of this world.
Suffolk Fen Skater   Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:29 am GMT
A sport the Grantabruggshire swampmonsters are good at...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_skating
King Harrold   Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:57 am GMT
Talking of Lent, to all the Brits who love a useless prestigeous Latin word:

Happy Quadragesima!
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:13 pm GMT
Don't you mean Kuadragesima?

Of course we have a fondness for Latin - it forms part of many of our placenames, thanks to our Occupiers between 54BC and 410AD - look closely enough at a map of the UK (more especially that of England) and you will see instances of two wee villages spaced a couple of miles or so apart from each other - one being larger than the other in size - one will have the word Magna as the second part of its name, and the other will have Parva - I leave it to you to work out which will be the larger of the two.

Over time in some of the Parvas grew larger than the Magnas, which makes a nonsense of their names really. Other place names have words like "sub" and "super" in their names, such as Weston-sub-Edge (in Gloucestershire) and the more graphic Weston-super-Mare, in Somerset...again, you can work out the meanings there, and no prizes for guessing which one of the two is situated on the coast and which one is situated below a steep incline.

I've given up being unpleasant to people during the Lenten period.
Cooper   Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:26 pm GMT
<<Alright, Cooper, we won't split hairs on this one...>>


Yes, we will. We will ALWAYS split hairs.
Cooper   Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:32 pm GMT
(The earlier Cooper, not the 2nd, more emphatic Cooper.)

<The Anglo Saxon language was gradually evolving and developing into Old English at this time>

Do you then distinguish between OE and Anglo-Saxon; and if so, how?

<Alfred ... along with a group of monks, set about the establishment of some kind of learning centre in Oxford for the promotion of advanced knowledge and study, therefore laying the foundation of Oxford as a centre of learning. >

What is your source for this? It sounds very much like a legend wrapped in local-brochure-ese.

<It's also true that the former Roman monk St Augustine died in 640>

604, surely.
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:44 pm GMT
In the words of Captain Mainwaring, of the Warmington-on-Sea Home Guard brigade - "I wondered who'd be the first to spot the error!"

True enough - St Augustine of Canterbury died in 604 and not 640....a mere slip of the keyboard tapping - a transposition of numbers. I'm subject to moments of numeral dyslexia.

My source for that information about King Alfred the Great?? Some bloke down the pub.

How about Middle English then?

Which do you think is the most plausible - Alfred's devotion to learning and meaningful academic study for the acquistion of knowledge and his determination to provide such facilities for as many of his able contemporaries as possible - or his ability to allow the cakes to burn in a moment of forgetfulness and absent mindedness?

I suggest you conduct your own research with regard to this topic.
Cooper   Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:22 pm GMT
<a mere slip of the keyboard>

That's ok.

<How about Middle English then?>

That would be incorrect (whereas your version with "Old English" was simply muddled). The change from Old to Middle English depended on conditions that were not present in Alfred's day.

I would write off the whole paragraph if I were you.

<Which do you think is the most plausible - Alfred's devotion to learning and meaningful academic study for the acquistion of knowledge and his determination to provide such facilities for as many of his able contemporaries as possible - or his ability to allow the cakes to burn in a moment of forgetfulness and absent mindedness? >

Even if we could quantify the relative plausibility of Alfred's "devotion to learning" on the one hand, and the cake-burning episode on the other, it would not have any connection with the foundation date of Oxford University.