Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French

Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:04 am GMT
Keep in mind that "tener" (Sp) and "tenere" (It) have evolved somewhat differently in the respective language. Tener is very often used in Spanish as "to have" while the same cannot be said in Italian as "tenere" means "to keep".

"Haber" (Sp) and "Avere" (It) have also evolved differently. While "haber" is used more as an auxillary verb, "avere" (instead to "tenere") is the everday "to have" construction in Italian.
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I am not going to argue whether Italian is closer to Spanish than French or vice-versa. All I know is that the degree of similarity between Spanish and Italian tripped me up when I tried to learn Italian after having taken nine years of Spanish.

Personally, I believe to successfully speak both Italian and Spanish, the important part is learning the differences, because the similarities, as numerous as they are, can trip you up as you get used to thinking everything is the same when there are key points where the two languages diverge.

I wonder what it would be like if I tried to learn French?

Side note: My friend and sister-in-law (Italians) are both taking lessons in Spanish. My sister-in-law in particular complains that it is hard, especially when I laugh at her as I think an Italian speaker should think Spanish is a piece of cake. I guess not though.
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:06 am GMT
Well said Latino.

Si parlo italiano - lo posso scrivere, parlare, e leggere... haha. Who is this guy who keeps writing in French, is he for real? Not only does he make silly, non-sensical comments, but I don't care for French that much, it's very difficult to understand, yet lui gli piace molto scrivere in francese.

Anyway, I agree Latino; although I think that even culturally Spain and Italy are more similar than France and Italy (from Rome south that is)... the north of Italy is like a whole different country to "we" southerners... haha.

Brennus, Latino, et. al; Seems like everyone agrees with us about the undeniable closeness of Castellano and Italiano, except for the one Francophile dessenter who goes by "Guest" and calls people names to compensate for his lack of comparitive linguistic knowledge (or common sense for that matter).

Ciao! :)
Guest   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:08 am GMT
<<Soy-es/eres/-son-somos-sois (spanish)

sum-est/es/-sunt-sumus-estis

sono-e-sono-siamo- (????) >>

The order and formatting of this is strange...
I-it/you/-they-we-you all

Anyway, in Italian is:

sono-è/sei/-sono-siamo-siete
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:11 am GMT
Tiffany, they are two different languges; remember that. But what we discuss is the fact that being two distinct modern languages they are so very close. I am surprised at your sister-in-laws.... I honestly tell you that every Italian I know has picked it up in no-time. Que raro. Sometimes I laugh because the topic can't be overanalyzed, sure there are "tener" and "tenere" differences. Words that at one time were used in the same fashion but over time split in the different countries, but one has to look at the more obvious, bigger picture.

Tiffany, merely count in Italian, then do it in Castellano, then do it in French. It pretty much sums it up. Our accents in Castellano and Italian are even more similair (for an even more extreme version, listen to Argentine Spanish). We trill "r's," sing while we speak, maintain the "Latin-ness" of pronunciation. Overall, they are as close as two lanaguges can be without being the same langauge. There are so many words and phrases that are not only the same with lexicon, but pronunciation. I guess I will have to make a list; I just thought it was obvious (hehe). I guess being born and raised in bella Italia, and as a European it is much clearer to me than a native Anglophone.
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:18 am GMT
Come sta? (IT. Form.)
?Como esta? (SP. Form)......

The accents even sound very similar.....

I guess it's just something Italians and Spaniards (Argentineans, and many other countries) know as fact, it just is what it is, and 99% of the people on here see it too... French is nowhere as close to either; the ones who disagree seem to have some sort of "French agenda" in a time when the amount of American children studying French is at almost an all-time low (or one person on here I guess I should say).....
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:18 am GMT
Ci sono molte persone maleducate su questo forum. Come accessi la indirizzo IP?
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:19 am GMT
By the way, I was "Guest Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:08 am GMT"
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:22 am GMT
Tiffany... si, ci sono; like that one person who made up the Spain (satellie) lie. Actually it's (l'indirizzo) and it just showed up aside the name. :)
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:26 am GMT
Dottore Costa,
Le somiglianze sono molto chiare a me. Come una persona chi parla inglese, mi chiedo spesso se un straniero può distinguere tra l'accento spagnolo e l'accento italiano. Che pensi?
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:28 am GMT
E ovvio che non sono italiano. Sto imparando italiano, ma è difficile perché vivo negli Stati Uniti. Ma cerco! ;) Grazie per avermi corretto.
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:55 am GMT
Tiffany, penso che Lei ha raggione; sono molto simile. It's apparent and clear, eh? That's what we've chatted about on this board. The similarities are so clear that a discussion doesn't seem necessary afterall. Los espanoles y los italianos lo sabe bien.

You will, however, learn to distinguish the Castlian and Italian accents as you become more proficient in each. Ciao amica mia :)
Dr. C.   Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:57 am GMT
"Habito" instead of "vivo"... va bene?
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:38 am GMT
Va be'. Grazie. A presto se questo discussione continua...
Tiffany   Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:39 am GMT
Aspetta... Non è "abito"?
Catalanòfon   Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:11 am GMT
I just wanted to say that "Español" wrote those sentences are in perfect peninsular Spanish. As a matter of fact, it's quite obvious he must be Spanish since it is quite difficult to write as colloquially as he did. As a native bilingual Catalan-Spanish speaker I just wanted to confirm this and I can assure you I've got nothing to do with Español.

The fact is most monolingual Spaniards do not understand Italian or cannot follow an Italian movie if it's not with subtitles. They can, of course, easily learn the language after a few months. Still I would say the distance is greater than between Dutch and German since Italian and Castilian are not the same continuum. As I said, before, there are other Latin languages in between.

All linguists and historians know that the Spanish influence on Italian dialects (Naples, Sardinia and Sicily, basically) is actually Catalan and dates from the 14th to the 17th century with the Crown of Aragon (and not Castille).

The closest language, by far, to Spanish is Portuguese.

Y el caso es que vivo en España y tampoco tiene que venir nadie a decirnos lo que es buen castellano y lo que no lo es.

I trust I am being correct at all times and yes, I am baffled, at Mr. Costa's arrogance. I agree with him there is a cliché in Italy regarding their ability to "speak" Spanish. The cliché isn't so big in Spain but it can also happen. Nevertheless, clichés are just clichés. This doesn't mean, of course, that Spanish and Italian have close family ties.

Regarding French I already said it's the most evolved Latin language and although many similarities are found in the written language the oral language sounds quite strange to all other Romance language speakers.