Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French

Tiffanny : Es <tener> vs It <tenere>.

100 % d'accord avec toi.


———> Es <tener>
1/ Poseer una cosa o disfrutar de ella : « tiene un apartamento en la playa » = « je possède un appartement sur la plage ».
2/ Corresponder a alguien una cualidad o estado : « tiene mucha paciencia » = « j'ai beaucoup de patience».


———> It <tenere>
1/ Avere in mano, tra le mani = « avoir en main, entre les mains ».
2/ Reggere, sostenere in posizione verticale qualcuno o qualche cosa a evitare che cada = « maintenir, soutenir quelqu'un ou quelque chose en position verticale pour éviter qu'il chute ».

———> Fr <tenir>
1/ Avoir à la main, dans les bras : « tenir un objet » — « tenir quelqu'un par le cou ».
2/ Maintenir fixé = « la sangle qui tient la charge ».

PS : je me suis arbitrairement limité aux deux premières acceptions dans chaque langue.

Catalanòfon : entièrement d'accord. De A à Z.

Like Greg, I agree with Catalanòfon that Portuguese is indeed closer to Spanish than Italian is. It's interesting the the influence of many southern dialects is Catalan. I'd never heard of this. I know just a little of Occitan, but I think some of the Northern dialects must be either Occitan or influenced by Occitan from the sounds of them.

Le catalan semble combiner les 2 acceptions :

———> Ca <tenir>

1/ Verb que denota que la cosa expressada pel complement directe pertany al seu subjecte o està sota el seu control, n'és una part, n'és una qualitat o l'afecta de tal o tal manera.
« Ella tenia quatre fills » = « ella tenía cuatro hijos » = « elle avait quatre fils ».
« Tenir talent, tenir memòria, tenir bon gust. » = « tener talento, tener memoria, tener buen gusto » = « avoir du talent, avoir de la mémoire, avoir bon goût » = « avere talento, avere memoria, avere buon gusto ».

2/ Amb les mans, els braços, etc, impedir que una cosa cedeixi a una força, caigui, s'afluixi, se solti, etc = « avec les mains, les bras, etc, empêcher une chose de céder (?) à une force, de chuter, de lâcher, de se détacher, etc ».

3/ Mantenir-se dret, sense caure, sense cedir : « se maintenir droit, sans chuter, sans céder ».

Tiffany et Catalanòfon : j'écris sous votre contrôle — corrigez mes erreurs !

Tiffany:

Italian romance language scholars have always had a great interest in this question. A search in Google will give you lots of information regarding catalanisms in Italian dialects. As a matter of fact, Catalan is still spoken in the Sardinian town of Alghero (l'Alguer, in Catalan) and Catalan remained the official language of Sardinia until the 17th century.

Catalan influenced the dialect of Naples and also Sicilian. The only two "Spanish" popes (the Borgia known as Borja in Catalan) actually were Catalans from near Valencia in Spain and all their documents are in Catalan.

Unfortunately, French, Spanish and Italian nationalisms are not interested in acknowledging the medieval and renaissance importance of Occitan and Catalans and everything is just labelled "French" or "Spanish". From a scholarly point of view that cannot be held at all.

I just give you an Italian reference "Second recognition of Catalanisms in southern Italian dialects", by the Italian Society of Romance Philology.

Società Italiana di Filologia Romanza - SIFR
[Prefazione a] Gianfranca Piras, L'italiano giuridico-amministrativo nella ...
Seconda ricognizione dei catalanismi nei dialetti italiani meridionali e ...
www.sifr.it/biblio_soci/bibliografia_socio. php3?socio=blasco_ferrer-eduardo.txt&nome=Eduardo&cogn... - 16k - Còpia en memòria - Pàgines semblants

The above message is mine.

Catalanòfon : la place des langues occitanes et catalanes est reconnue en France. Tous les spécialistes savent l'importance de l'ancien occitan et son impact sur la culture européenne médiévale. Il est rare de trouver un ouvrage sur l'histoire de la langue française — digne de ce nom — où le rôle de langue occitane est omis.

Sauf, bien sûr, les lycéens occitans qui n'en ont aucune idée. Ils savent bien qu'il y avaient "des troubadours" qui chantaient "en belle langue d'oc" (peut-être du vieux français?) mais, franchement, très peux savent qu'il s'agit du même patois parlé par leurs aieux ou à la ferme voisine. Il n'ont jamais vu un texte occitan et la litérature française commence bien après dans les programmes. Je parle de la généralité. Il est bizarre qu'il n'y ait aucun auteur "français"(dans les programmes) qui soient du midi de la France pendant le Moyen Age.

De toutes façons je suis heureux de trouver des jeunes français qui sont tout à fait au courant. Esperons que tout changera.

Oui, l'école, bien sûr, c'est une autre affaire : beaucoup de jeunes Français ingorent probablement l'existence des langues d'Oc (ou d'Oïl d'ailleurs). Mais au niveau universitaire, l'ignorance n'est plus permise. Quant aux chercheurs, professeurs, érudits et autres passionnés, ***NUL*** n'ignore l'existence des langues d'Oc et de leur brillante littérature, ancienne et moderne. Le contraire serait catastrophique, non ?!

Pour moi la castrastrophe c'est la coupure ou rupture entre les occitans actuels et leur passé glorieux. Les troubadours sont étudiés, en Catalogne, par tous les lyceens (original en koiné occitane et texte en catalan contemporain à côté.) En plus, les castillans ne prétendent pas que les troubadours forment part de la culture en langue espagnole bien qu'ils reconaissent leur importance. Il s'agit, doncs, d'une appropiation interessée. D'un côté appropiation et de l'autre côté occultation.
Il n'est pas possible, dans une faculté à lettres française, de presenter un thèse doctorale en occitan sur les troubadours occitans! Et je n'invente rien mon très cher Grégoire.

You are right Latino, Castilian Spanish and Italian are the closest; it's just pure fact.

This guy "Catalanòfon" is hysterical... pretends to know someone's Spanish-ness by their speech. Regardless, "Catalanofon" read Dr. Posner's book amoungst many others - the linguist concensus is as I state, Castellano and Italiano are the closest. Portugese has much more reverse Gallic influences on it, which are Germanic in nature and come through the French.

And the "troll" guy - wow.... ignorance must be paired with rudeness. Dumb and rude all in one.

Sono italiano... I say what all Italians know, and pretty much everyone on here agrees with. It is what it is - ps "catalonfon" - if perhaps you lived in Italy as I perhaps you would understand it better.

Let's please tone it down a bit... per favore (por favor) ... oh look, almost the exact same words, where yet again the french lexicon and pronunciation is totally different.

Brennus, Latino, and many others are quite learned. I say as it is known by Italians - it is what it is - Castellano and Italian are the closest. No hay nada mas que se podria decir.

Try reading the Yale department of linguistics book, "The Romance Languages" by Dr. Posner. Perhaps some education will enlighten the confused dissenters and will avoid their inappropirate vulgarities.

Thankfully over 90% see the truth when they read it....

Be well.... Ciao :)

PS.. I have to chuckle a bit... that my being born and raised an Italian was doubted by one. hehe

Sono nato in Avelino (a gorgeous place).... by the way.

Also, just to simplify all of the jumbled talk. From a very young age, Italians can easily pronounce, read, understand, and speak Castellano without much effort (if need be, ie: from visiting another country, and mixing the two langauges); they are VERY close to natives. Maybe that's why the francophile (Guest) doesn't understand.

But just to make it clearer, he continues to write in French, which I, a native Italian speaker can barely understand. I never had that problem with Castellano. Even before schooling, I could understand over 90% without issue.

That's the consensus and there's linguists to prove it; other than that, there are only board people who love to debate logic the alleged Catalonian and the Francophile (Guest)... hmmmm, I see a trend. An agenda toward their own preferred culture, nationality? Absolutely clear to me now. So, for that reason. I will be letting this issue go, knowing that everyone else sees it for what it is, excpet for those Gallic fans who have their own "french-influenced" agenda - one that doesn't pertain here (sorry). Italians, Spaniards, and even Portuguese all can get by very easily with each other's languages in Europe, but this is NEVER the case with French. Linguists know it, and I as an Italian and a European know it, as do other Latin Europeans. I am not going to further debate fact when almost everyone on here agrees except the two who are "francophiles" - so I shall let this very clear case of Castellano and Italian being the closest rest because I know it is what it is, it is true, and so does everyone else. I just realized that it's silly to debate something with those who ardently want to assert a heavier French relation than is accurate. My wife who is also from Italy has read this and has said, "Ecco! See everyone says the same thing," when she saw all of the comments agreeing that Castellano and Italian are the closest. But when she read the 1% of dissenting comments she laughed at loud and said, "They don't see obvious things; that's very dangerous." I agree with her - everyone agrees about the Castellano/Italian link, even on here, but I'm not going to waste my time debating with the one or two who live only to debate; they ignore fact for opposition and it's truly indicative of more major problems with them. Facts are facts.... it is what it is.... Castellano and Italian are the closest - Europeans know it. If you don't, then that's an American problem. I wish you all well.

In the meantime, you might like to see this link. It's a list of names by ABC. If you click on the name it tells you the country of origin. Over 80% of the names from Italy are also used in Spain; something that is not seen to that degree of similarity in any other EuroLatin country.

Here's some examples:

CELESTINA f Spanish, Italian
Feminine form of Caelestinus (see CELESTINE).

CELESTINO m Spanish, Italian, Portuguese
Spanish, Italian and Portuguese form of Caelestinus (see CELESTINE).

CELIA f Spanish, Italian
Feminine form of the Roman family name Caelius (see CELIO).

CELINO m Italian, Spanish
Italian and Spanish form of the Roman family name Caelinus, which was itself derived from the Roman family name Caelius (see CELIO).

CELIO m Italian, Spanish
Italian, Spanish and Portuguese form of the Roman family name Caelius, which meant "heaven" from Latin caelum.

CELSO m Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Italian, Spanish and Portuguese form of the Roman family name Celsus, which meant "tall" in Latin.


http://www.behindthename.com/

Spanish and Italian are closer then Italian and French...so italian is closer then italian...can you...get an argument together...please?

Who cares about italian and spanish ?

In Italy people from different regions don’t even understand each other! Italian is SO VULGAR LATIN, French has more class and more classical Latin terms.

Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité