two distinct grammars

Tobias   Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:08 am GMT
''Spoken BP and EP are structured by two distinct grammars''



source:
Sociolinguistics: an international handbook of the science Volume 3
By Ulrich Ammon, Norbert Dittmar, Klaus J. Mattheier, Peter Trudgill

quote is easily searchable on Google books


---
BP = Brazilian Portuguese
EP = European Portuguese
Tobias   Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:13 am GMT
From the same book:

Issues connected with standardization

''So-called -teaching of Portuguese-, paradoxically
termed -teaching of the mother tongue-, is required in Brazil
even for students who have BP as L1. Underlying this paradox is
the fact that school grammars follow certain European Portuguese norms that are absent from even literary and technical texts in contemporary
Brazil. Since EP constitutes a purely imaginary norm, many Brazilians
hold their speech in low esteem, as is evident in the common feeling that “we don’t know how to speak our own language”. The standard
language has more to do with social class than with context.''
Ren   Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:18 am GMT
xi......começou
Gunner   Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:28 am GMT
Is it just me or does Portuguese (European especially) sound like Russian?
loulou   Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:35 am GMT
Portuguese sounds Slavic because of palatals (Russian, Ucranian, Polish), closed/muted e's and a's (Russian), nasals (Polish)...The way Lisbon Portuguese pronounce ''percebes'' or ''verdades'' sounds like ''prsébsh'' , ''vrdadsh'' (with a syllabic r, like Scottish pronunciation of hurt, Kirk). Syllabic r's are common in Czech and Slovak.
opinion   Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:42 pm GMT
Portuguese doesn't sounds Slavic,it sounds like Leones with French accent. Portuguese hasn't Slavic sounds as shch,or kh (x) . Portuguese r is like French r.
Muñoz   Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:10 pm GMT
Portuguese definitely does not sound like French.
And Castillle-León they speak pure standard Spanish.
Salamanca (located in León) is the home of the standard Spanish language teaching. Leonese has died out which is good (just like Plaat died out in Hannover making Hannover the place where the best Hochdeutsch is spoken in whole Germany).
Ren   Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:56 pm GMT
Well, EP definetly does not sound like French, BP not as much either. I think its more of the nasality and "softness" of French and BP.
lolling Joao   Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:15 pm GMT
I have a slight feeling that we're constantly repeating the same things here he he he he

Could we get another subject please?
nud   Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:01 pm GMT
<<Portuguese r is like French r. >>

no it's not. Both are uvular fricatives but the Portuguese R is voiceless whereas the French R is voiced.
Ren   Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:06 pm GMT
I personally do not see the difference between the French R and the Portuguese R. But I am not a linguist so I will not argue on this subject :)
nud   Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:19 pm GMT
<<I personally do not see the difference between the French R and the Portuguese R. But I am not a linguist so I will not argue on this subject>>

Initial R:
Portuguese: http://www.forvo.com/word/raz%C3%A3o#pt
French: http://www.forvo.com/word/raton_laveur#fr

Between two vowels:
Portuguese: http://www.forvo.com/search/terr%C3%ADvel/
French: http://www.forvo.com/word/c%27est_terrible#fr

Do you hear the difference?
Franco   Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:23 pm GMT
Is it true that the Portuguese imported their guttural R from France and before that R was trilled like in Italian and Spanish?.
Chica mona   Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:00 pm GMT
I was in Rio and boy, that guttural R is very ugly: RRRRRio.
I prefer the Spanish pronunciation that is still used in parts of Portugal and it is the norm of African Portuguese.
Ren   Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:41 pm GMT
Thanks Nud, When I get home I will listen closely! :)

And shut up chica go back to mexico. I personaly love guttural Rs. Not only in Rio it is found, but Recife, and some other areas of the northeast.