Catalan and Spanish

Gringo   Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:46 am GMT
Olá David Garcia

In this website you can hear mirandese:

http://www.mirandes.net/index2.asp?idcat=1008

Maybe soon they will do like it is being done with Galician-Portuguese and put the government of both countries working together to preserve the oral traditions and culture.
David Garcia   Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:29 pm GMT
Bonas nueches Gringo,

Thanks for sending me that website, I actually did not know about it. I have been reading some other mirandes websites but not this one in particular.

The first approach has been made by the asturias govertment which have recognized mirandes as the same language than Asturian (Astur-leonese), but not much has happened to be honest!

In Leon city I have attended to few mirandes conferences and presentations, the Asterix and Obelis in Mirandes was very funny! but almost nothing has happened.

I am now quite intrigued to find out which culure has been develped in Bregancia which also seemed to be part of Salamanca in the past for many years.

Saludines pa toos.

Bon nadal y prestosu 2007
Gringo   Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:57 am GMT
Olá
David Garcia:

««The first approach has been made by the asturias govertment which have recognized mirandes as the same language than Asturian (Astur-leonese), but not much has happened to be honest!»»

AsturLeonese is not the same language, Mirandês is a variety of the Leonese ( yes it was the old name although as you said AsturLeonese is preferred by some) that was spoken in the kingdom of Leon. Today it is considered a different language from Leonese, because of the isolation from the other Leonese speakers it evolved differently, it is even considered more conservative and has three dialects, although it belongs to the Astur-Leonese language family.

«« I am now quite intrigued to find out which culure has been develped in Bregancia which also seemed to be part of Salamanca in the past for many years.»»

And I am quite intrigued with what you mean with this “culture”. Are you referring to the “cultura castreja” and “cultura dos berrões” (sp. “verracos”)? Or to the local traditions?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
JGreco   Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:54 pm GMT
>>Gringo<<

Of what I heard on you tube, I probably understood 99% of the programming. I think the only thing I forgot the meaning of was the word "Cheio". But to me Gallego is like a link between Castellano and Portuguese with both languages understanding Gallego more than each others language fascenating!
David Garcia   Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:41 pm GMT
Hi Gringo,

yes I mean to say "cultura dos berrões”. I do not know much about it and I would like to read about it. Any suggestions?

Regarding Mirandes! I totally agreed with you. The original name of the language was Asturleonese. This name was lost in the time as the language devloped differently in several regions. Mirandes has possibly been developed quite differently in regards with the other astur-leonese speakers. I personally find hard to understand Mirandes at time, but still contains a high number of commom words with the astur-leonese spoken in my grandparent's village.

As I said before most of the astur-leonese speakers would not use the name of Asturleonese to refer to the language. Each region or town call the language diferently, names like pal.luezu, babianu, furniellu......Terms like leonese and asturian have been brought up recently and normally cause conflicts between each one (other clear example in Spain is Catalan and Valecian). To avoid nationalism or limit the language to a territory many current speakers (and young people) refer to the language as Astur-leonese or simply Astur.

Here I leave a link for you to be able to listen to leonese. The recording is not really good therefore it is hard to hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIRfnz_RVk
gringo   Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:42 pm GMT
Olá

JGreco

"cheio" means full.


David Garcia:

The "cultura dos berrões" (sp.verracos) is represented by zoomorfic stone statues of wild boars, bulls, dogs and bears. A nice one in Portugal is "porca de murça". In Portugal you find this culture mainly in Trás - os - Montes and in Spain you find it in Zamora, Salamanca, Ávila and Câceres.

http://www.castrosyverracos.com/esp/miranda/introduccion.htm

Here you have a Portuguese and a Spanish version choose one (5.48MB):

http://www.oaedr.es/Publicaciones/2006/Maquetacion_1_PORT.pdf
http://www.oaedr.es/Publicaciones/2006/Maquetacion_1_ESP.pdf

pictures:
http://www.fotoaleph.com/Exposiciones/Verracos/Verracos-index1.html#Verracos


in wikipedia (english):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verraco
Gringo   Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:46 pm GMT
David Garcia:
Thanks for the link. There is also Mirandês from Sendim is called Sendinês instead of Mirandês. People always get territorial about their culture.
santiago   Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:18 am GMT
David Garcia, Gringo y otros

Muchas gracias que han parado Jordi y sus companeros de hablar de Catalonia. Chestnuts?? Extrano, pero cualquier manera de pararlos esta bien!

Soy de Neuve Zelanda, he sido solo una vez a su bella pais... asi, lo siento para mi espanol!
David Garcia   Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:12 pm GMT
Hi Santiago,

welcome to the forum! There is nothing bad about talking about catalunya or catalan but whenever you take this to extremes as some people do it gets just too annoying to listen to it.

In a new EU in which we all trying to understand each one, becoming a new europen nation it seems so silly that people still want to create tension between each one.

At the end of the day, we all are european in Europe and humman living in this earth what the hell would you care where we come from or were born?Nationalism is just this new century igorance to flight each one.........

You know what they've just found water on mars perhaps they can send the catalan there and let them live in peace......I am sure they would still complain even there :-) hahahaha
Guest   Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:59 am GMT
Barcelona á Montpeller

Oh ciutat de Montpeller,
Mare de Jaume primer !
Jo que só sa esposa aymada,
Te vull dir, per ton conhort,
Que don Jaume no es pas mort,
Puix es viva sa fillada.

Aqueix aster resplendent
Te prengué per Orient,
Mes á mi per son mitgdia ;
Quan en Valencia morí,
Per tu, per ella y per mi
Semblá que'l sol se ponía.

Donárenli en son arranch
Sant Jordi son cavall blanch,
Sant Jaume sa espasa encesa,
Los Pirineus sa grandor,
Tes donzelles la rossor,
Tos donzells la gentilesa.

De l'Esgleisa fort capdill,
De son cavall al renill
De pertot los Moros treya.
Ta espasa, oh conqueridor,
Ta espasa es la ploma d’or
Que escrigué nostra epopeya.

Ell feu passes de gegant
De Montpeller á Alacant,
Fent la terra cristiana ;
A Mallorca 'ls Serrahins
Se la 'n duyan mar endins,
Quan ell ne feu ma germana.

A nou anys fou capital
A catorze sobirá,
A vint conquerí realmes ;
Feu florir en son verger
La Victoria son llorer,
La sabiesa ses palmes.

Sa vida es mon segle d'or ;
Catalunya fou la flor
Que á son bes s'esbadellava,
Y anava creixent, creixent
Fins que en terra no cabent,
S'estenía en la mar blava.

De ma niçaga es lo Cid ;
De Catalunya David,
Son Goliat tirá á terra ;
Sa tenda fou lo cel blau,
Era l'anyell de la pau,
Era 'l lleo de la Guerra.

Ell uní, Montpellerins,
Valencians y Mallorquins,
Ab la mía vostra historia :
No ab dur jou nos ha lligat,
Sinó ab lo vincle sacrat
De sa sanch y de sa gloria.

Oh ciutat de Montpeller,
Mare e Jaume primer !
Jo que só sa esposa aymada,
Te vull dir, per ton conhort,
Que don Jaume no es pas mort,
Puix es viva sa fillada.

(Jacint Verdaguer)
David Garcia   Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:17 pm GMT
Nice poem! Thanks for posting it :-)
Ian   Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:16 pm GMT
<< Does anyone here have any experience with learning Spanish and Catalan at the same time? >>

I think it's almost impossible not to learn Spanish and Valencian at the same time. At least if you learn it in Spain.
I read that Valencian is also spoken in France in Rosselló, but I think it's pretty weak there.

Records,


Ian
Mallorquí.   Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:26 pm GMT
Ian, la situation du catalan au Roussillon rappelle beaucoup celle de l'allemand en Alsace.

Je vais souvent au Roussillon. Seulement deux fois, les dix dernières années, deux personnes ne m'ont pas compris en catalan, et il m'a fallu parler français.

Ne serait-ce que par des raisons de contigüité géographique, d'identité ethnique et culturelle, les roussillonais, même si à la maison parlent français (ce qui est loin d'être abolu), toujours sauront parler le catalan (si vous voulez l'appeler valencien, pas de problème), et cela pour des raisons commerciales et culturelles: la radio et les télevisions catalanes du sud couvrent tout le territoire roussillonais. À Perpinyà, Ràdio Arrels est intégralement en catalan.


Cela mis pa part, naturellement que, à Valence, tout enfant scolarisé parle espagnol et valencien. Et, plus encore, aux Baléares et en Catalogne, l'école est presque intégralement en catalan (l'espagnol y comparait comme matière d'étude). Comment veux-tu que les enfants des immigrés (immigrés riches, comme les allemands, et pauvres, comme les maroquains, bulgares, etc.) ne parlent parfaitement le catalan?

Ma famille est multiculturelle: il y a des français, des espagnols, des hollandais, etc. Notre langue commune est le catalan.
Rodrigo   Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:19 pm GMT
About two years ago we went to Catalonia for vacation, and when we went to the French side (I do not know how this region is officialy called) the only thing we saw in Catalan were the names of towns. Moreover my lastname is Catalan and ends in -au but most people pronounced it like /o/.
I pray to God I used the correct sign.
Ian   Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:08 pm GMT
@ Mallorquí

No vaig ser a Catalunya encara. Però del que he sentit, el valencià hi és molt més intens.
És gairebé impossible per a mi imaginar-me que els estrangers a València aprenguen la llengua perquè el castellà és prou fort ací.
Quan fui a València (Ciutat i la alta Ribera) sempre em va respondre la gent en castellà (amb una excepció a la estació dels trens a la ciutat), malgrat que els vaja preguntar en valencià.
Coses rares. Per bé que ho puga entendre un poc. Li devia caure estrany li parlar en valencià a un estranger (Sóc indonesià). =)