Catalan and Spanish

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From Galego:
"Let's not "celtify" everything, if we really don't know."

Read this:

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin".

Oisin
Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

----//

Why you say it is celtifying everything if the Celts were Iberian.

Thanks, guest. I am aware of theses recent genetic studies which seems to relate british genes to Iberian genes. But one thing is genes and another culture. Besides can we really talk about "celts" 4 or 7 thousand years ago?

Maybe the "magosto tradition" started the same day somebody discover a way to start a fire and did some experimentation.

Cheers!

Hi guys,

Following the Catalan example looks like other spanish region want to keep alive that new trend called "separatism".

And this is happing on my region......hahaha!!! Well to be honest Leoneses we have never been Castellano y leoneses or whatever they wanna call us......but we should try to move ahead and do not fall in the same mistakes which the catalan are making.

Well I let you write your comments about this new taken from the newspaper.

http://tribuna.net/noticia.asp?ref=28803

Según aprobó ayer la diputación provincial
León comienza su segregación de la Comunidad imitando a Cataluña
Rechazo. Tanto el PP como el PSOE se opusieron a esta iniciativa, que había sido presentada por UPL.
La Diputación de León aprobó ayer una moción que pretende que se incluya un mecanismo de segregación para la provincia en el nuevo Estatuto de Autonomía de la Comunidad, una propuesta presentada y apoyada por la UPL y en cuya votación se abstuvieron PP y PSOE.
ICAL Valladolid

Olá

Galego:
««But one thing is genes and another culture.»»

And culture is an important thing that has to be preserved; at least something is being done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVmiJa_kTw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4dql9G-Py4&mode=related&search=

http://www.opatrimonio.org/index_en.asp

David Garcia:

It looks from now on we will be hearing a lot about Leonese language. :P

Gringo,

I hope you are right and we will be hearing a lot about the "leonese langauge". I would like to make some clarifications as some people get confused with the different names given to this langauge. The language was originally called Astur as was the language used at the Asturias kingdom. Once the capital of this kingdom moved to Leon the kingdom's name and its lanaguage changed to Leones (better known as Lliones). This language was rapidly disappearing as castile was integrated and was consider the langage to follow (Lliones was left as a second language for the uneducated people). The result was that the language developed with some differences all over the territory as was not taught at school. Asturias was perhaps the region left with the biggest amount of active speakers and due to this fact some asturian movements founded the Academy of the Asturian Language. The goverment has been making some efforts and implamented the langage at the schools but still remains as an official language. Asturleones has 3 main dialects, the central which is taken as the standard by the Academy of the Asturian Language, the occidental dialect (Leones spoken in some parts of Leon, Zamora and Salamanca) and the oriental dialect (with no many active speakers in these days). The main problem in Leon and Zamora in these days is that the language has not been standarized as people do not want to follow the central standard imposed by the Academy of the Asturian Language. Therefore you could find active speakers in Sanabria (Zamora) who use different spelling and words that others in Palacios del Sil (Leon). What we all agree is that we are using the same language as the principles and grama are the same.
To resume all this, people in asturias mainly call the language Asturian and in Leon, Zamora and Salamance mainly called Leonese. Many people are starting to call the language "Asturleonese" or simply "Astur" to avoid dispute whether the language belongs to a region or other. Other less often names for the language are Pachuelo (in Laciana), Berciano (in some part of El Bierzo), Senabres (in Sanabria), Aliste, lengua del Rebollar,....this is all due to the fact there is not an institute controlling and standarizing the language (occidental dialect of the asturleonese).
The current situation in Leon and Zamora nowadays is that there are less and less native speakers (as most of them are old people in small village) and the goverments have done nothing so far to keep the language alive. After many years complaining and requesting some kind of help with this lanague in Leon and Zamora (think the Academy of the Asturian Language cant promote the language outside Asturias) on the new estatute they are going to recognize the language (not make official) and promote it in those places in which it is still used.
My parents were and are castillian speaker, as am I? but I still remember my grandparents speaking what I thought it was a broken-castillian with some galician words. My parents used to tell me that when they went to the school and used "dialect" words the teachers used to hit them and tell them that was wrong, that was not a languge, that is wrong castillian. Therefore the language has suffered so much over the year almost to extreme that it could disappear.

Sorry for this boring speech :-)

I will keep talking about it if you want to.

I'd recommend you to have a look at this website:
http://www.furmientu.org/

I am a member on their forum and we usually have discussion in asturleonese about the language and different matters which affect the language.

Thanks for reading and hope you learn something today :-)

PD, the funny thing about this language is that the only place in which is official is in Miranda do Douro (this is due to a leonese migration to this part of portugal in the past).

Olá David Garcia

In this website you can hear mirandese:

http://www.mirandes.net/index2.asp?idcat=1008

Maybe soon they will do like it is being done with Galician-Portuguese and put the government of both countries working together to preserve the oral traditions and culture.

Bonas nueches Gringo,

Thanks for sending me that website, I actually did not know about it. I have been reading some other mirandes websites but not this one in particular.

The first approach has been made by the asturias govertment which have recognized mirandes as the same language than Asturian (Astur-leonese), but not much has happened to be honest!

In Leon city I have attended to few mirandes conferences and presentations, the Asterix and Obelis in Mirandes was very funny! but almost nothing has happened.

I am now quite intrigued to find out which culure has been develped in Bregancia which also seemed to be part of Salamanca in the past for many years.

Saludines pa toos.

Bon nadal y prestosu 2007

Olá
David Garcia:

««The first approach has been made by the asturias govertment which have recognized mirandes as the same language than Asturian (Astur-leonese), but not much has happened to be honest!»»

AsturLeonese is not the same language, Mirandês is a variety of the Leonese ( yes it was the old name although as you said AsturLeonese is preferred by some) that was spoken in the kingdom of Leon. Today it is considered a different language from Leonese, because of the isolation from the other Leonese speakers it evolved differently, it is even considered more conservative and has three dialects, although it belongs to the Astur-Leonese language family.

«« I am now quite intrigued to find out which culure has been develped in Bregancia which also seemed to be part of Salamanca in the past for many years.»»

And I am quite intrigued with what you mean with this “culture”. Are you referring to the “cultura castreja” and “cultura dos berrões” (sp. “verracos”)? Or to the local traditions?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

>>Gringo<<

Of what I heard on you tube, I probably understood 99% of the programming. I think the only thing I forgot the meaning of was the word "Cheio". But to me Gallego is like a link between Castellano and Portuguese with both languages understanding Gallego more than each others language fascenating!

Hi Gringo,

yes I mean to say "cultura dos berrões”. I do not know much about it and I would like to read about it. Any suggestions?

Regarding Mirandes! I totally agreed with you. The original name of the language was Asturleonese. This name was lost in the time as the language devloped differently in several regions. Mirandes has possibly been developed quite differently in regards with the other astur-leonese speakers. I personally find hard to understand Mirandes at time, but still contains a high number of commom words with the astur-leonese spoken in my grandparent's village.

As I said before most of the astur-leonese speakers would not use the name of Asturleonese to refer to the language. Each region or town call the language diferently, names like pal.luezu, babianu, furniellu......Terms like leonese and asturian have been brought up recently and normally cause conflicts between each one (other clear example in Spain is Catalan and Valecian). To avoid nationalism or limit the language to a territory many current speakers (and young people) refer to the language as Astur-leonese or simply Astur.

Here I leave a link for you to be able to listen to leonese. The recording is not really good therefore it is hard to hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIRfnz_RVk

Olá

JGreco

"cheio" means full.

David Garcia:

The "cultura dos berrões" (sp.verracos) is represented by zoomorfic stone statues of wild boars, bulls, dogs and bears. A nice one in Portugal is "porca de murça". In Portugal you find this culture mainly in Trás - os - Montes and in Spain you find it in Zamora, Salamanca, Ávila and Câceres.

http://www.castrosyverracos.com/esp/miranda/introduccion.htm

Here you have a Portuguese and a Spanish version choose one (5.48MB):

http://www.oaedr.es/Publicaciones/2006/Maquetacion_1_PORT.pdf
http://www.oaedr.es/Publicaciones/2006/Maquetacion_1_ESP.pdf

pictures:
http://www.fotoaleph.com/Exposiciones/Verracos/Verracos-index1.html#Verracos

in wikipedia (english):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verraco

David Garcia:
Thanks for the link. There is also Mirandês from Sendim is called Sendinês instead of Mirandês. People always get territorial about their culture.

David Garcia, Gringo y otros

Muchas gracias que han parado Jordi y sus companeros de hablar de Catalonia. Chestnuts?? Extrano, pero cualquier manera de pararlos esta bien!

Soy de Neuve Zelanda, he sido solo una vez a su bella pais... asi, lo siento para mi espanol!

Hi Santiago,

welcome to the forum! There is nothing bad about talking about catalunya or catalan but whenever you take this to extremes as some people do it gets just too annoying to listen to it.

In a new EU in which we all trying to understand each one, becoming a new europen nation it seems so silly that people still want to create tension between each one.

At the end of the day, we all are european in Europe and humman living in this earth what the hell would you care where we come from or were born?Nationalism is just this new century igorance to flight each one.........

You know what they've just found water on mars perhaps they can send the catalan there and let them live in peace......I am sure they would still complain even there :-) hahahaha

Barcelona á Montpeller

Oh ciutat de Montpeller,
Mare de Jaume primer !
Jo que só sa esposa aymada,
Te vull dir, per ton conhort,
Que don Jaume no es pas mort,
Puix es viva sa fillada.

Aqueix aster resplendent
Te prengué per Orient,
Mes á mi per son mitgdia ;
Quan en Valencia morí,
Per tu, per ella y per mi
Semblá que'l sol se ponía.

Donárenli en son arranch
Sant Jordi son cavall blanch,
Sant Jaume sa espasa encesa,
Los Pirineus sa grandor,
Tes donzelles la rossor,
Tos donzells la gentilesa.

De l'Esgleisa fort capdill,
De son cavall al renill
De pertot los Moros treya.
Ta espasa, oh conqueridor,
Ta espasa es la ploma d’or
Que escrigué nostra epopeya.

Ell feu passes de gegant
De Montpeller á Alacant,
Fent la terra cristiana ;
A Mallorca 'ls Serrahins
Se la 'n duyan mar endins,
Quan ell ne feu ma germana.

A nou anys fou capital
A catorze sobirá,
A vint conquerí realmes ;
Feu florir en son verger
La Victoria son llorer,
La sabiesa ses palmes.

Sa vida es mon segle d'or ;
Catalunya fou la flor
Que á son bes s'esbadellava,
Y anava creixent, creixent
Fins que en terra no cabent,
S'estenía en la mar blava.

De ma niçaga es lo Cid ;
De Catalunya David,
Son Goliat tirá á terra ;
Sa tenda fou lo cel blau,
Era l'anyell de la pau,
Era 'l lleo de la Guerra.

Ell uní, Montpellerins,
Valencians y Mallorquins,
Ab la mía vostra historia :
No ab dur jou nos ha lligat,
Sinó ab lo vincle sacrat
De sa sanch y de sa gloria.

Oh ciutat de Montpeller,
Mare e Jaume primer !
Jo que só sa esposa aymada,
Te vull dir, per ton conhort,
Que don Jaume no es pas mort,
Puix es viva sa fillada.

(Jacint Verdaguer)

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