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je suis d´accord avec Grec. Catalonia belongs to France
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Mon très cher Greg.
Il est difficile de parler d'histoire dans un forum. En tout cas la Provence devient française assez tard et la bataille de Muret 1213 se fera entre la Maison de Barcelone (roi d'Aragon et comte de Barcelone) qui est appelée par ses "frères" toulousains pour combattre "le français". Les textes et les poèmes occitans sont très clairs et parle bien de l'enemi "français". La Catalogne est indépendante depuis bien avant bien qu'il ne soit pas étrange que la Maison de France se considère heritière unique et privilegiée de l'Empire Carolingien et du "destin" de l'Empire. De la même façon que les castillans ont toujours consideré qu'ils étaient les héritiers de l'Hispania romaine bien que le mot "espagnol" apparaît dabord pour parler des catalans de la part des occitans et français. Evidemment, l'histoire est toujours écrite par ceux qui gagnent. Le reste n'était pas d'accord, bien sûr. Les occitans, bien sûr, se considèrent, à l'immense majorité, français de nos jours en dehors de quelques cercles très minoritaires. Le sentiment nacionaliste, comme tu sais bien, est beaucoup plus fort en Catalogne parce que nous sommes resté un pouvoir indépendant de Castille jusqu'à 1714.
Ce n'est qu'en 1481, après le court règne de Charles III du Maine, que la Provence devient française. Créé en 1501 par Louis XII, le Parlement de Provence, cour souveraine de justice, entend défendre les privilèges provençaux face à la politique centralisatrice des rois de France.
Et, le français ne sera pas obligatoire qu'après l' Ordonnance de Viliers-Coterêts de 1539 (François I). La fancisation lingüistique officielle de l'Occitanie est assez tardive et, comme tu sais bien, l'occitan restera la langue populaire jusqu'à la Grand Guerre (1914-18) et dans certaines régions plus conservatrices jusqu'aux années 50.
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Felicitacio catalanofon.
Le plus grand mépris. c'est l'ignorance. Sur ce coup la. J'apprécie les quelques leçons d'histoires. Bien qu'aujourd'hui, nous soyons dans un siècle de communication. Je constate qu'on a toujours autant de mal à faire passer l'information comme plusieurs siècles en arièrre.
A titre d'information: on peut retrouver toutes ces informations auprès des églises ( attention: Bien connaître le latin). Je vous rappelle qu'à cette époque, les seules qui savaient écrire étaient l'église et l'aristocratie.
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I have been following this thread with much interest. All the contributors are very knowledgeable. I have learned a lot from reading the posts.
However, regarding Catalunya, its economy, politics and language Catalanòfon asserts that "We are, after all, a democracy." Well....depends how you define that. Many hundreds of thousands (yes, hundreds of thousands) of people living, working and paying taxes in Catalunya ( local, national, and to Madrid) are systematically denied a vote in elections. I pay taxes, I have an empadromiento.....I'm not allowed to vote. WHY NOT? I know someone who has lived here in BCN for 26 years, paid taxes, social security, given birth to a Catalan child, and is still not allowed to vote! I suspect that if those who settle here were given the vote BCN would have a mayor/alcalde of South American origin....and the promotion of catalan would quickly be sidelined. Have you seen the inward migration figures for the past few years? It doesn't take much maths or understanding of demographics to add up the potential........
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Spanish laws apply all over Spain and not only Catalonia. Immigration laws are passed in Madrid, meaning by the central Spanish government. It isn't a local Catalan affair.
Furthermore, citizenship laws are the same within most European countries. Citizenship laws are the same in Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain, etc. for European Union countries.European Union citizens can vote in all those countries.
I imagine your Catalan must be as fluent as your English. After all, you have lived 26 years in Catalonia and I'm sure you have learnt both the official languages in the autonomous region. You seem to be a highly reasonable and intelligent woman (having given birth to a child I imagine you must be a woman.)
The case is to attack the weakest language even if it's the language of the land.
If you have given birth to a Catalan child and have lived so many years in Catalonia why don't you apply for Spanish citizenship? Catalan citizenship doesn't exist from a political state point of view.
I imagine you can't vote in the USA or Canada if you're not a citizen. I imagine you can't even do that in the country you left so many years ago looking for wider horizons.
My family lived many years in other countries (I was even born in another country of Catalan parents) and we never voted and I never got a school grant because I wasn't eligible. We chose to remain Catalan Spanish and we, of course, paid the price for it.
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Dear Jordi,
I really enjoy your posts. I cannot understand why the Castilian nationalists are so opposed to Catalan and Catalonia. I lived in Barcelona and Lloret de Mar briefly in the late seventies. I was so impressed by the Catalans as indivduals and as a community, I cannt fully express my admiration and the land, itself, is paradise!
All Spaniards should be bursting with pride for the precious link they have to the rest of Latin Europe (in a special manner to the Gallo - and Occitano-Romance speaking peoples) through Valencia and Catalonia. Your Catalan customs ie the Sardanna, the gift of a book and a rose on the day of the Catalan Language, the ancient Benedictine traditions of Montserrat, the emphasis on art since the Romanesque, and the cuisine are ( I truly believe) Divinely inspired. I am a Mexican-American from California; my home-state was practically founded and, certainly, missionized by a Catalan, Blessed Junipero Serra. We are rightfully proud of this fine good-hearted man as he would be of the modern Catalans, had he lived to meet the excellent human beings I came to know in my youth in Catalonia. Think abou it California's original link to Spain was via the beauty of a Catalan's soul. Please continue educating us on catalan y los paises catalanes y que viva Catalun~a, tierra bendita de Dios, para siempre!
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Moltes gràcies i benvingut a Catalunya, un país que no has deixat mai.
Thank you very much and welcome to Catalonia, a country you have never left.
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Jordi, i can´t find a country named Catalonia or Catalunya in my atlas. Can you help me? No joke. I have nothing against people speaking catalán, or feeling the catalán culture, but please, what can think the rest of europeans about the request of speak catalán at the european parlament? It sounds very funny to me. And by the way: ¿castilian nationalists? you mean the people who think that Madrid is part of Castilla y Leon or what. If you like catalán, note my advise; put apart all that stuff abut how many people speak catalán and all that things that can be asociate to the nacionalist conflict and people will take you more seriously.
From Castilla with love.
Pablo
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It's funny isn't it and yet, we Catalan, feel no need at all to be known as what we are not.
I'm so pleased to see Castilla loves us so much to the point of wanting us to be thought of as Castilians in the rest of the world. We'd rather be what we are.
By the way, by a better atlas. Catalonia was a nation long before it became a part of Spain. It isn't an independent nation any longer but it still is a nation. No doubt about that.
Remember that England, Scotland or Wales wouldn't be nations either since your poor Atlas will probably say "Great Britain".
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You are right Jordi. I know that Scotland and Wales have each one a national team of football. But Spain, you know, isnt like Great Britain, and definetly Cataluña isnt like Scotland. I dont want catalan to be desapeard because i have nothing against catalan, but i feel that SOME catalans (see ERC for example) really hate spanish. It´s like when the fascist "Paco Franco" ruled Spain. I dont know what he had against catalan culture but he tryed to destroy it. At the present day it´s the same but in the other side (I don´t know if you understand me, my english is very bad). Some catalans wants Cataluña to be a single nation, ok, they can want what they like. But by now, Spain is a Nation, not a states federation so please dont said that Cataluña is a nation bacause it isnt true.
Gaudi, Dalí, Boadella, Buenafuente,... they are ( or were ) people that i really like, and THEY ARE FROM CATALUÑA. Can you see? It isnt a spanish identidy problem. It is a catalan mistake to think that Spain makes Cataluña weaker. Spain makes Cataluña a greater region like the European Union makes Spain a greater country. Union makes force.
Again, sorry about my bad english.
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Quienes son de Espana? Mi descendencia proviene de Andaluz y Castilla la mancha. Soy Mexicano, evidentemente...tambien parlo el Castellano de Espana adecuadamente y se los terminos espanoles. Cuales son las diferencias entre Andaluz y Castilla (la mancha?)
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>>>tambien parlo el Castellano de Espana adecuadamente y se los terminos espanoles.<<<
Isn't "parlo" a despective way to say "I speak"?
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Dear Carlos:
"Parlo" isn't a despective or a Castilian Spanish way to say "I seoak". It's simply how we say it in Catalan.
And yes, Catalonia is as much a nation as Scotland or Wales are. We are "Spanish" the way the Scots, English or Welsh are "British". We belong to the same political state and share a lot together but we are a different culture and nation. You've got to consider that was the case until the 18th century and that most native Catalans have always expressed their wish to be thought of as a different "nation". Many of the errors in Spanish politics in the past three centuries come from the fact that many would like us to stop being Catalans. By the way Gaudi was a monolingual Catalan speaker who never spoke a word of Spanish in public and was arrested for that fact.
That doesn't mean we don't like the Spanish language or the Spanish people. After all, we are bilingual -in Cataland and Spanish- and you aren't.
And it is only too fair to be able to speak in the European Parliament in an important historical, literary and alive European language such as ours. After all, we pay our taxes and are Europeans being Catalans. Catalan isn't either worse or better than Castilian Spanish.
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Jordi, considering the cultural, historical and linguistic barrier between the Spaniards and Catalonians, and after Franco's death and the adoption of the constitution in Spain, I wonder why didn’t you, Catalonians proclaim a total independence from Spain, and declare a sovereign state: Catalonia ?
In my opinion, Catalonia with a population of nearly 7 000 000, a suitable capital like Barcelona, looks like a potential sovereign state.
One more thing. Is it true about Franco being declared a saint by the pope ?
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I feel if you are for Quebec to become its own sovereign nation, you must be for Catalonia to be separate as well. I would ask if anyone has a differing view and why, but this question really isn't about languages - which this forum is supposed to be about.
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