The 8 "imperial" Languages

Mr Tan, what about Hong Kong? For your info, mandarin is the official language of taiwan province!
The Tibetans aren't treated that badly nowadays! When they were supressed during the 60s to 80s, so was the whole of china, it was not just tibet you know!
The chinese government has already acknowledged the mistake of mao. But you can't expect them to openly insult mao! He was after all the founding father of modern china! If not for him, china would still be divided today!
Even as you argue against the 'onslaught' of mandarin, don't forget that english too is trying to dominate the world! Look at Singapore, many young chinese people are speaking mandarin instead of dialects and many are also forsaking their culture for western culture and english!
For your info, I myself is a buddhist and a southerner! But the past is the past, we chinese have to stay united!

MR. -

Above-mentioned intelligent viewpoint really hits the needle! Very correct!

I agree that the influence of a language depends much on the fortunes of it's mother country and not so much on its grammar or alphabet. For example Russian became more important as the USSR became a world power and conquored half of Europe in 1945. If Russia strengthens again it is likely that the Russian language will become more important, and if Russia weakens Russian will weaken.

Once upon a time, there was a student from Peking University who got in touch with subversive ideas whilst working as a librarian in his school. He promptly decided that the salvation of the country lies in a wholescale importation of a creed that is intrinsically foreign to the country's ethos and culture. Disaster ensued. The country is reeling. It still reverberates.

I do not consider Mao to have any positive role and his significance in the pantheon of modern Chinese heroes must be downplayed. His cult must be toned down, if not eradicated. Why is his face still peering out from every renminbi bill?

To the feller who chooses to go by a hyphen, you said you are a Southener. Out of curiosity, which province are you from? Seeing that I was from the most southern of Chinese provinces, anything else is considered north to me.

Taiwan is officially a Mandarin-speaking country. But Hokkien is often used in parliamentary sessions. Just listen to President Chen or Vice-President Lu. They frequently break out in rapidfire Hokkien. How about former President Lee Teng Hui? Whenever I see him on TV, he's always speaking Hokkien.

It's also perfectly untrue that young Singaporeans do not know how to speak dialects. Hokkien forms an intrinsic component of the army subculture here and since almost all of us are obliged to serve for 2 years in the army, a passive knowledge of the dialect is de rigeur.

PS: I see that I've touched an exposed nerve in my critcisms of Chinese leadership. You must know that this is a common sentiment shared among many overseas Chinese. Reunification between Taiwan and China can only be realised if the current regime is reformed and democratised.

On a linguistic note, I have nothing but positive things to say about Mandarin serving as the lingua franca for the Chinese. I only take umbrage at the way Mandarin is gaining currency at the expense of the various southern tongues. Learning languages is not a zero-sum game: it is entirely possible to master Mandarin and yet remain eloquent in the native patois.

This should be the approach taken at local governmental levels.

Mr. Tan

Since I was born, I've been always living in Tiajin city, which is very close to Beijing, actually I don't either like Northern dialects, such as Beijing and Tianjin idioms, but we have to admit that Standard Mandarin plays an important role in many respects, and even in everyday's conversation, Mandarin can be spoken by most of the people to shorten the distance between different places, and as for me I consider Taiwan Mandarin much more euphonic than Beijing style, and I really like Taiwanese (Minnanese) very much, because my uncle is Taiwanese too, and I often heard that he spoke Minnanese when he was on the phone, I felt it's very interesting!

By the way, I like Cantonese very much too, I'm very liberal Northern man.

I misunderstood you, Chinese. You are more moderate than I thought you were. Also, you must understand that I do not purport to transmit any anti-Chinese agenda in my previous posts. I may dislike the Chinese Government intensely for ideological reasons, but I am very keen on China. We still have family ties which we maintain assiduously.

However, many people from the North have a rather imperialist attitude when they go South. I remembered travelling in Shenzhen once and a local gong-an chap brusquely telling a local to address him in Mandarin despite Shenzhen being a predominantly Cantonese settlement. Mandarin is definitely the undisputed national tongue, but at least in Guangdong province, Cantonese must play a just as important role as the local language. Don't we pride ourselves on our abilities to do as the Romans do, to 入 乡 随 俗?

I've visited Tianjin once. Lovely place. Unfortunately, I only spent a day there as my parents were more interested in taking in the sights in Beijing instead.

Mr. Tan

Formally I would like to apologize for my former extreme response to you. At that time, by error I considered you as an arrant Taiwan nation splittism. Frankly speaking, I've always been disgusted with their ridiculous clamour, as a matter of fact, Taiwan province, was, now is, and will be always an important part of China's territory. Nobody can deny!

And later I calmed down, and then I found myself had reckoned without some of your correct opinion, so now I confess I shouldn't have attacked your post by impetuous diction, but I have to tell you that there're still a great deal of Northern people like Southern dialects, such as Cantonese and Minnanese, and Mandarin would be of great importance for both you and me, especially China ought to have its symbolistic uniform official Chinese language, in fact, I prefer living in the South of China to in the North, and I would like to settle down in Xiamen instead of in Tianjin, due mainly to the warm weather, the beautiful environment, and the polite Southern people. I wish that Chinese government would be able to push on with the unification of Mainland China and Taiwan province as soon as possible without any army's operations. After all, we're all Chinese people, we have the same tradition and we all speak Chinese languages.

OK, that's all what I think about. I hope that Minnanese and Cantonese will be always spoken worldwide.

Although I am not pro-mao or a frevent communist supporter, I still think that you cannot deny mao's contribution to China. Although he made a lot of mistakes, at least he still unified China and chased the foreigners out of China and invented nuclear weapon for China. If not china will still be carved out by foreigners today.
I am a hokkien born in guangdong and i speak both cantonese and mandarin. I can see the decline of dialects in singapore! You cannot deny the fact that the use of dialect is on the decline in Singapore and replace d by mandarin and english!
You still havent answered my question on Hong Kong! Is cantonese being supressed by mandarin? Actually, schools in hong kong are switching their medium language of instruction form english to cantonese after reunification with mainland. So what makes you think that hokkien will be wiped out by mandarin in Taiwan if it unifies with mainland!

Are u sure overseas chinese really think that reunification with taiwan can only be achieved if china becames democratic? What about Hong Kong? Has it crumbled because of reunification with china? As a chinese, I think that western-style democracy doesn't suit china, I think singapore-style democracy is best!Too much freedom leads to trouble!

I reckon the original thread has deviated. I apologise unreservedly for that. I'd make a comment as to the viability of the so-called '8 Imperial Languages' in a subsequent message.

Chinese: We're all Chinese, but it's more often than not, a cultural concept and not a racial one. Nonetheless, the ties which bind us are very strong. That is why I am in favour of a political gradualism when the prickly issue of Reunification is raised. Most Taiwanese favour the status quo. Most of us in the region like the way it is now. A Taiwan that is beyond the realm of direct Chinese control, but yet affirm its Chinese pedigree in practice.

Xiamen is a beautiful city. I liked it very much as well. People on the streets speaking a familiar and yet melodious lingo. I do not really understand Hokkien (Fujianhua) well, but as Teochew (Chaozhou hua), of which I also speak, is rather similar, mutual intelligiblity exists to a certain extent.

Hyphen: No, I cannot deny the lamentable decline of 'dialects' in Singapore. I regret it intensely. Why did I sweat blood to pick up Hainanese, Teochew and Cantonese as I was a bit older? It stemmed out from cultural awareness that Mandarin wasn't the sole gateway to the Chinese world and that it definitely was not the 'language of my ancestors'. There is a precipitious decline in the Min-Nan dialects but Cantonese has managed to stem the rot to a lesser degree. It is still after all, the language of TVB and HK serials are quite popular here.

No, Cantonese continues to flourish and thrive in HK, but I have to say that I hear more Mandarin spoken in the territory nowadays. Before the handover, Mandarin was almost an alien tongue in HK. Do Mandarin speakers make an effort to integrate and pick up Cantonese like Jet Li, Leon Lai, Carina Lau and Faye Wong? The old Mandarin speakers would, but I doubt if the new ones display the same warmth to integration.

Seeing that you're from Guangdong, you must have known at least a couple of beifangren who have lived for years in the province and yet cannot get past a few basic sentences in the local lingo, be it Cantonese or Teochew.

Maybe we should establish a new thread for this. I believe we three would be rather happy about Chinese languages, culture and politics.

Mandarin: Its role in the world will continue to grow unabated, but it'd soon reach a level of saturation, as far as the number of people who are able and willing to learn is concerned. The main obstacle to Mandarin reaching the dizzying heights of success which English has attained would be the perceived -as well as the actual- level of difficulty which mastering the language poses. It is not easy. Even native speakers would agree that it is tricky.

Spanish: At least in South-East Asia, Spanish is a relatively unknown entity. The main organ of Spanish language teaching, the Cervantes Institute, can only be found in Manila. But its stock in the Americas and Europe is rising. I am not surprised.

French: Despite all the doom and gloom surrounding the language, I think French will always be a language to be reckoned with. Its presence is well-entrenched in major world bodies. Undoubtedly, its relative share of the pie will diminish but its absolute share will gain prominence.

Arabic: Faces the same challenges as Mandarin. Increasing world relevance to be tempered by the realities of accessibility as well as facility.

Russian: I wish I can say that Russia is knocked out from the stage for the time being and that she would surely mount a return in style sometime in the near future. But if demographics were to paint a story, it'd be a very sad one indeed. Faced with a declining population as well as a diminishing geopolitical influence, Russia is fast becoming an irrevelant political lightweight. If the fate of a language is strongly intertwined with its metropolis, the future does not augur well with the language of Pushkin.

German: The fact that it is hardly spoken natively beyond Mitteleuropa speaks a lot for German on an international level. The fact that most German speakers speak English and other European languages fluently also underlines the fact that it is not as important as its demographics would otherwise suggest.

Besides, isn't the population of Germany also on a decline? Read my argument for Russia. It applies for the language of Goethe as well.

Portuguese: The Brazilian variety will prevail and triumph. It'd hit saturation level quickly as well. When? How fast? I haven't the foggiest.

To Tan and Chinese,
I like to watch hong kong movies and drama serials and taiwanese songs.Maybe we should start another thread!I really hope to master french and i can't wait to master it! Do you have msn messenger, maybe we can exchange emails and stop using this forum like a chatroom.

There is one advantage that English has, over and above the number of speakers, or its spread by the British Empire, or the economic and cultural influence of the U.S: the massive number of non-natives who have already learned it or are studying it. The use of English has its own impetus outside the native speaker areas--learning it as a lingua franca to use with all the people who are perceived as knowing some English. And many of those who spent years learning it will be reluctant to put in the same effort on another language.

That is also why I think that Tan is right about French. There are too many people in the former French colonies--especially the elite--who are not going to give it up easily for something else. They may encourage more study of English (or other languages), but French will probably not go away.

I also think that Tan is right about German. Why bother learning it, if the majority of Germans know English? (And apparently like to show off their English language skills!) Chinese many also be heading in this direction, as the both China and Taiwan have gone insane over English study--if the Chinese are perceived as knowing English, why would the average European learn Chinese?

I've said it elswhere, the only language I really see making real headway is Spanish. The number of native speakers is vast and growing, it's official in 20 countries, it's use in the U.S. (the largest English speaking country!) is spreading rapidly--and, unlike German, most of its native speakers cannot speak English.

Come to www.langcafe.net. We have an active Chinese language subforum in it and the ability to use pms over there would pave the way for a more personal exchange of contacts. I am rather keen on the idea of discussing about the relative merits and demerits of Chinese 'dialects' with both of you.

Mitch: Unfortunately, Spanish is not making much of a headway in Asia yet. Its time in the sun would arrive, but it already has a very formidable foe in English to reckon with. The English language has sunk roots here either on a native or secondary language level and it is every bit an Asian language as well as French can be considered as an African language. Its presence is already institutionalised. The establishment generally speaks English either as a first or second language.

That is not to say there is no more room for other languages. The share of the pie is smaller, but there is still enough for everyone. Currently, the second most popular European language here would have to be French. Note that I have to qualify my statement by the insertion of 'European'. It used to be that French was the second most popular foreign language, after English. Full stop. China's resurgence has precipitated a sharp rise in Mandarin language learning and the language has eclipsed French in many South-east Asian countries already, such as Thailand. Even French is under assault from the Chinese dragon in the former French Indochinese colonies. It'd be interesting to see how the language reinvents itself to remain relevant to the Vietnamese, Cambodians as well as the Laotians.

The only redeeming feature for German is that their leaders speak the language in public. Statesmen from countries such as the Netherlands and Sweden have a tendency to address the world media only in English. Dr Angela Merkel, I noticed, speaks only in German to the world press.