Less and fewer

Ed   Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:40 pm GMT
By the British/International standard I don't mean the precise Recieved Pronunciation as this does differ, but the broader standard in terms of spelling and grammar. "International English" is often offered as one of the choices in computer programmes as opposed to United States English.

There is an example that comes to mind when I remember learning English at school in South Africa (as a first language). In South Africa many people make the grammatical error "throw with" as in "John threw Peter with a tomato" instead of saying "John threw a tomato at Peter". This happens because of the influence of Afrikaans which uses this grammar. In addition it would seem logical in English as it would be standard to say "John hit Peter with a stick" or "John shot Peter with an arrow". Another common error was "by" instead of "at", for example "I was staying by my friend's house" instead of "I was staying at my friend's house." Our teacher would always determinedly correct us if we ever said or wrote "throw with" or used "by" when we meant "at". This is the sort of "prescription" I'm speaking of.

However as she was Afrikaans she would always spell "horizon" as "horison" much to the annoyance of subsequent English teachers.
Guest   Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:02 pm GMT
If you learn a language at school, it's not your native language.
Travis   Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:11 pm GMT
>>Another common error was "by" instead of "at", for example "I was staying by my friend's house" instead of "I was staying at my friend's house." Our teacher would always determinedly correct us if we ever said or wrote "throw with" or used "by" when we meant "at". This is the sort of "prescription" I'm speaking of. <<

That one sticks out to me, since that same exact usage is current here in southeastern Wisconsin. The only exception is I would likely actually say "I was staying OVER by my friend's house"; however, the meaning and usage of "over" is separate from that of "by" here. Of course, I do not perceive this usage as "incorrect", but rather as just a native feature of my dialect, even if it originated in it due to substratum influence (in this case from High German dialects rather than Low German ones).

>>If you learn a language at school, it's not your native language.<<

Of course. There is a difference between features of one's native dialect and features resulting from incorrectly learning a second language. Of course, with Ed's example of the use of "by", that likely is a native feature of the English of many South Africans, due to the adstratum influence of Afrikaans.
Ed   Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:21 pm GMT
> If you learn a language at school, it's not your native language.

So children don't learn how to read and write English at school in the UK or the USA, Australia etc? This is certainly news to me. Obviously we all secretly speak French at home and have to learn English at school in Britain. What an a peculiar notion.
Travis   Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm GMT
>>So children don't learn how to read and write English at school in the UK or the USA, Australia etc? This is certainly news to me. Obviously we all secretly speak French at home and have to learn English at school in Britain. What an a peculiar notion.<<

The matter here is that one does *not* learn one's native language at school, but rather at home. One may be taught how to read and write and literary language conventions at school, but that is not the same as actually having been taught one's native language itself at school.
Guest   Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:47 am GMT
Interesting about the Afrikaans influence on English usage. My impression of the South African accent (in English) is that it is strongly Dutch-accented, but perhaps this is true only of those whose first language was Afrikaans.

It does seem though, that there are many more with Dutch ancestry (and names) than with UK or Irish forebears. Is this so?
Ed   Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:20 pm GMT
>> The matter here is that one does *not* learn one's native language at school, but rather at home. One may be taught how to read and write and literary language conventions at school, but that is not the same as actually having been taught one's native language itself at school.

I think it is perfectly clear what I meant about English as a first language at school.

I'd say the accents of English-speaking South Africans and Afrikaans-speaking South Africans are very different when they speak English - the former tend to sound somewhat like New Zealanders and the latter not. I would not say an Afrikaans accent sounds like a Dutch accent, Dutch sounds more 'ho-de-ho', Scandinavian or 'stodgy' for want of a better term (Dutch sounds to me rather like Afrikaans spoken with a mouth full of food). However this may well be because I'm familiar with an Afrikaans accent and not with a Dutch one; they may sound similar to others and the English and Afrikaans South African accents are not sharply divided, they shade into each other. Indeed it is not unusual to hear people switch between languages in conversation or even mid-sentence. Often bilingual people will use the word that they feel is easier or more descriptive.

Amongst the white population of South Africa the majority have Afrikaans as a first language and have mainly Dutch (eg van der Merwe) or French derived names (eg Du Toit, Terreblanche or Viljoen) but there is a large English-speaking minority. In addition virtually all the people known as Coloured (a people of mixed European, Malay and indigenous origin) speak Afrikaans as a first language. There are slightly more coloured than white Afrikaans speakers but one does not hear so much of them outside South Africa and many foreigners assume all Afrikaans speakers are white. Black South Africans tend to speak English with yet another very different accent.