Tiger Woods accent glottalized??? asian heritage?

Ka'ie Car'er   Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:41 am GMT
Pronouncing mountain as moun'ain? I wouldn't have thought even cockneys or estuarians would do that.

The "uh-oh" example is fair enough; of course it requires a glottal stop, but it is not an example of a glottal stop replacing a T.
Kirk   Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:44 am GMT
About the whole "d" thing, it is a popular misconception that Americans say "d" for underlying /t/ in the appropriate positions. As I stated before, intervocalic (and a couple other positions) /d/ and /t/ after a stressed syllable become voiced alveolar tap/flap [4]. Thus, both "udder" and "butter" are pronounced with [4] in North American English, not [d]. Same thing for "tomato." "Tomato"'s two /t/s are manifested in different ways as a result of their differing phonological positions. The first is [t_h] and the second [4]. Actual [d] is found in other positions (such as initial or final).
Kirk   Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:46 am GMT
<<Pronouncing mountain as moun'ain? I wouldn't have thought even cockneys or estuarians would do that.

The "uh-oh" example is fair enough; of course it requires a glottal stop, but it is not an example of a glottal stop replacing a T.>>

Who ever said anything about it replacing a /t/? The original post didn't mention that, tho I guess I could see how you might assume that. Anyway, /t/ can become glottal stop in North American English in some positions, but it's not nearly as common as in, say, Estuary or especially Cockney, obviously.
Travis   Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:52 am GMT
>>About the whole "d" thing, it is a popular misconception that Americans say "d" for underlying /t/ in the appropriate positions. As I stated before, intervocalic (and a couple other positions) /d/ and /t/ after a stressed syllable become voiced alveolar tap/flap [4]. Thus, both "udder" and "butter" are pronounced with [4] in North American English, not [d]. Same thing for "tomato." "Tomato"'s two /t/s are manifested in different ways as a result of their differing phonological positions. The first is [t_h] and the second [4]. Actual [d] is found in other positions (such as initial or final).<<

Another note is that the differentiation between /t/ and /d/ can still be shown in such positions despite their merger as [4] by the length of the preceding vowel, with /t/ resulting in a short preceding vowel and a /d/ resulting in a long preceding vowel. This is why certain word pairs that seem that they "should" merge do not in practice, such as "latter" and "ladder". Even still, the variation between the two is very small, considering that it is in terms of vowel length alone, and English vowel length allophony does not necessarily produce vowel length variation akin to, say, phonemic vowel length in most other Germanic languages.
Kirk   Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:03 am GMT
Yeah, vowel length can make a difference, altho I personally detect no difference between my "ladder" and "latter." I say them exactly the same.

<<Pronouncing mountain as moun'ain? I wouldn't have thought even cockneys or estuarians would do that. >>

There's a phonological rule in NAE whereby undlerying vowel + /nt/ -> nasalized vowel + [?] (glottal stop). There's also a phonolical rule which turns /t/ plus syllabic /n/ into [?n=]. Both of those phonological rules explain what's going on in "mountain," which is ["m{U~?n=] as I say it. However, notice that due to stress this rule doesn't apply to, say, "plantain," which I pronounce ["pl{nten].
Travis   Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:20 am GMT
>>Yeah, vowel length can make a difference, altho I personally detect no difference between my "ladder" and "latter." I say them exactly the same.<<

Yeah, I am likely to be biased on this regard as short versus long vowel length seems to be more strongly differentiated and more consistent in the dialect here than in most NAE dialects (why it is is beyond the topic). For at least many if not most NAE dialects, it seems like it is minor enough of a distinction that there really is little reason to mark it in non-very-narrow phonetic transcriptions in most cases.

Even still, this would be an interesting question to bring out the audio recorder and the speech analyser software for so as to see how much differentiation there really is between words like "latter" and "ladder" in various NAE dialects.
Uriel   Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:11 am GMT
<<Pronouncing mountain as moun'ain? I wouldn't have thought even cockneys or estuarians would do that.>>

As far as I can tell, Americans and (some) British people often split the syllables in "mountain" differently. It's either moun-tain, or mount-ain. Since I use the second split, the T tends to disappear into a glottal stop, and as a result, yes, I say moun'ain. You won't hear a real T in my version.



I've said "ladder" and "Latter-Day Saints" and they sound the same to me. Maybe I use a flap for both, I don't know.

But I do notice that there is a difference between my "saint" and my "saints". In the singular, just as in the first syllable of mountain, my T disappears, but once I add an S, there it is again!

So you can say that my saint, mount, count, can't, don't, squint, etc. all end in glottal stops, too. But saints, mountie, county, and squinting don't. (In county and squinting, the T's are completely silent!)
Kirk   Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:00 pm GMT
<<I've said "ladder" and "Latter-Day Saints" and they sound the same to me. Maybe I use a flap for both, I don't know. >>

Yeah, probably. I do.

<<But I do notice that there is a difference between my "saint" and my "saints". In the singular, just as in the first syllable of mountain, my T disappears, but once I add an S, there it is again! >>

Yup, what's likely happening is in "saint" you're nasalizing the vowel and then your /t/ is either unreleased or is released as a glottal stop (again what I do). The addition of the plural means your tongue has to go back to the alveolar ridge anyway so it's not surprise the /t/ is more likely to be realized as [t] again. You might nasalize the vowel like the first and have a glottal stop plus the [s] but having the [t] there would also be common.

<<So you can say that my saint, mount, count, can't, don't, squint, etc. all end in glottal stops, too. But saints, mountie, county, and squinting don't. (In county and squinting, the T's are completely silent!)>>

Yup, the words you list after "saints" and "mountie" are in a differing phonological environment.
Uriel   Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:37 pm GMT
But in countess, where it should also be silent, I say the T, because countess is such a rare word for me.
Kirk   Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:16 pm GMT
<<But in countess, where it should also be silent, I say the T, because countess is such a rare word for me. >>

Yeah, that's another factor. The rarer a word, the less likely it is for /nt/ -> [n] or [4~] to occur.
Leonard   Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:31 pm GMT
Rudolph Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:28 pm GMT
Fredrik from Norway:

There's no problem for me to start using o: instead of ö.
--------------------------------
o: stands for aw, not er "law, faun, yawn, call..."
o:r stands for aw~(-r) "lord, floor, sword..."
--------------------------------

The symbols are not representing languages. Furthemore, these ones are
used in most dictionaries of the English language.

I know German has ö as er, somehow pronounced, but English isn't German.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

Rudolph Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:37 pm GMT
What else do you think I should represent the symbols better?

Are you agreed that "a" in /cat/ is 'eh-ah, not ah?

Are you agreed that "o" in /cot/ is 'aw-ah, not ah?

Are you agreed that "u" in /cut/ is aw-'ah / uh, not ah or aw?

Are you agreed that "i" in /kit/ is 'ee-eh / ih, not ee?

Are you agreed that "oo" in /foot/ is not oo, but oo-'aw, somehow said faster and shorter?

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

Fredrik from Norway Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:07 pm GMT
cat = /cæt/
cot = /cot/
cut = /cöt/
kit = /kit/
foot= /füt/
Leonard Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:00 pm GMT
Fredrik from Norway:

cut = /cöt/ is wrong.

foot= /füt/ is wong.

You don't speak English really.

Your phonetic representation is affecting your conversation.


Pronunciation Symbols of Reader's Digest Illustrated Encyclopedia Dictionary for Antimoon.


ă stands for 'eh-ah, not ah "cat, map, camp, sad..."
ãr stands for 'eh-ah(-r) "care, fair, bear, where..."

ā stands for 'eh-ee "cake, pain, vein, prey, day, sleigh..."
--------------------------------
ĕ stands for eh "bed, sweat, dead, death, health..."
er stands for eh~(-r) "bird, verb, fur, work, word..."

ē stands for ee / e "meat, beet, bee, sea, piece, field..."
--------------------------------
ĭ stands for 'ee-eh / ih "fish, busy, building, bitch..."
ĭ stands for 'ee-ah(-r) "beer, fear, weird, mere..."

ī stands for 'ah-ee "light, buy, lie, sky, isle..."
īr stands for 'ah-ee-ah(-r) "fire, liar, buyer..."
--------------------------------
ŏ stands for 'aw-ah, not ah "cot, dog, dock, pop, bomb..."
ō stands for 'aw-oo / oh "slow, bone, load, dough, comb..."
--------------------------------
ŭ stands for aw-'ah / uh "duck, mud, pup, slut..."
ū stands for ee-'oo "new, cute, duty, view, feudal..."
yor stands for ee-'aw-ah(r) "pure, cure..."
--------------------------------
ä stands for ah, not eh "grass, glance, command, bath..."
är stands for ah~(-r) "car, heart, sergeant..."
--------------------------------
ö stands for aw, not er "law, faun, yawn, call..."
ör stands for aw~(-r) "lord, floor, sword..."
--------------------------------
oo stands for oo "fool, dude, food, womb, tomb..."
--------------------------------
oo stands for oo-'aw "foot, woman, wolf, hook, good..."
--------------------------------
oi stands for 'aw-eh "boil, boy, point..."
--------------------------------
ou stands for 'ah-aw "round, down, proud..."
--------------------------------
th stands for Spanish z "thing"
th stands for hard d in few words "that"

g stands for German g "game, girl"
g stands for Italian g "gem, geometry"

h stands for soft mouth air (aspiration) "home"
stands for no sound in French origin "hour"

j stands for Italian g "jail (gaol)"

l stands for behind the tongue, "doll, ball"
no tooth

y stands for ee "yesterday"

w stands for oo "well"
wh stands for hoo or oo "wheel, what"

-nion = ~nee-un, not ñun
-tion = shun
-stion = s chun
-sion = zhun
-rsion = r shun or r zhun
-ssion = shun
-cial = shawl
-tial = shawl

Repeat these words.

receive, believe, leave

belief, leaf, brief

wrong, knowledge, gnat, psychics, dumb, debt, psalm


Some people don't say the sounds as they should be pronounced. These
people use regional accents instead of the standard or basic accent.

Received British Pronunciation is the most acceptable accent around the world.

American English is the modern accent used in the United States of America.