Ango-Saxons

Knick   Thu May 11, 2006 8:39 pm GMT
Are there still some people in UK referring to themself as Saxon or Anglo-Saxon instead of or together with British or English?
Jim C, York   Thu May 11, 2006 8:51 pm GMT
There does seem to be a resergance of Anglo-Saxon pride, probably taking a leaf out of the Welsh, Scottish and Irish book of cultural/"celtic" pride. Some poeple seem to be using the white dragon on a red field flag as an expression of their culture, (the flag that was flown in england before the St.George flag). I hope that this kind of attitude is embraced, as this kind of thing has done alot of good for Wales, Scotland and Ireland. But if another one of Englands cultural anchors is taken by the rightwingers I shall be very dissapointed. So at this moment in time im none too sure about these groups intentions.

I think there is a web site called "wearetheenglish.com" or something, i checked it out once, i wasn't sure whether trolls were disrupting their forum, or it was actualy the websites views... judge for your self.
Fredrik from Norway   Thu May 11, 2006 10:21 pm GMT
English nationalism....very interesting and a lovely paradox, like most things English!
Looks like English nationalists are protesting against two things:

- Immigrants. If you think they shouldn't be in England, why did you conquer their homelands in the first place? This is the price you have to pay for being the biggest colonial power ever.

- EU. Feel free to leave. No problem. I'm not even a member myself :-))


Taking pride in the Anglo-Saxons...hmm...seems a bit weird. Did they have any cool music? Do you chill out with Beowulf? And is Anglo-Saxon mythology so well recorded that it actually forms a mythology?

Nay, England wouldn't be England if the Anglo-Saxons were the only component. Then it would just be Northern Germany. And how engaing is that piece of earth?
The genius of the English nation is made up of far more: Firstly of a country that is so beautiful and so steeped in ancient (not necessarily Anglo-Saxon) history and myth that it's just like one, big pastoral poem.
Secondly of a mix and clash of blood and cultures which incorporated Celtic genius, Viking daring, Norman effectiveness and well....Anglo-Saxon solidity
Benjamin   Fri May 12, 2006 1:51 pm GMT
It always seems that 'English or 'British' (but not usually Scottish or Welsh) nationalism or national pride is more or less synonymous with Euroscepticism at best and with Nazi-style racism and xenophobia at worst. There was recently a survey conducted amongst 11-year-olds in England and France — about 75% of the French children claimed to feel a sense of 'national pride', compared to about 30% of the English children. Probably not surprising, really.

In all honesty, I see my 'English' or 'British' nationality as nothing more than a piece of paper — a piece of paper which I will be able to throw away in a few years time.
Candy   Fri May 12, 2006 2:23 pm GMT
Fredrik, your posts are so lyrical! I love them! :-)

Benjamin, I don't get your point - why is it not surprising that more French than English 11-year-olds feel a sense of national pride? Because French kids are more likely to feel Nazi-style racism and xenophobia???? I doubt that's what you meant. Is it only English nationalism that's synonymous with these things - are other nationalities exempt?
And there's no such thing as 'English' nationality, is there? My passport says British, not English. In all honesty, I'm glad to have it.

As for the original poster's question: there may well be people who call themselves 'Anglo-Saxon' but it's meaningless, as all people of English heritage are a mix of Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Viking, etc etc etc.
D6110BC   Fri May 12, 2006 3:08 pm GMT
"Are there still some people in UK referring to themself as Saxon or Anglo-Saxon instead of or together with British or English?"

Only those of unsound mind or who hold dodgy political views.
Jav   Fri May 12, 2006 3:14 pm GMT
Nationalism is often a somewhat strange concept to me.

The bottomline seems to be that you should be proud about your countries/people history ... a bit improductive.

I'd turn it around ... you should make sure that your ancestors would be proud about you.The future.

I mean what would be more logical ... A tramp being proud that his father was a millionair, or a father who was a tramp being proud his son became a milionair?
Benjamin   Fri May 12, 2006 3:40 pm GMT
« Benjamin, I don't get your point - why is it not surprising that more French than English 11-year-olds feel a sense of national pride? Because French kids are more likely to feel Nazi-style racism and xenophobia???? I doubt that's what you meant. »

To be honest, I'm not really sure what my point was there, other than that I was not particularly surprised to hear that significantly more French children feel a sense of 'national pride' than English children. I cannot explain *why* it didn't surprise me though — it just didn't. But you're right — I don't believe that French 11-year-olds are any more or less likely to be racist of xenophobic than English 11-year-olds.

« Is it only English nationalism that's synonymous with these things - are other nationalities exempt? »

No. But I often get the feeling that a more clear distinction is usually made between 'nationalism' and 'national pride' in France and Scotland than in England.

« And there's no such thing as 'English' nationality, is there? My passport says British, not English. »

That's right. The difficulty here is that one will often describe one's nationality as 'English', even though it's technically incorrect. The only reason why I referred to the idea of an 'English or British nationality' was because some people had been talking about 'English nationalism' further up the thread.

« In all honesty, I'm glad to have it. »

Just of interest, have you ever been tempted to become German?
Godfrey   Fri May 12, 2006 4:05 pm GMT
I am one of them. I am Anglo-Saxon and English, not British.
Candy   Fri May 12, 2006 4:15 pm GMT
<<Just of interest, have you ever been tempted to become German? >>

In a word, no. I don't see the point. I suppose if it ever seemed that the UK might leave the EU, then yes....but failing that, never. I can live here perfectly well with British nationality, everyone knows I'm British, and everyone accepts it. If I became German, I don't see it making any difference. How about you - you have plans to become Belgian, I think it was? Are you making any progress there?

Actually, I quite agree with you about French kids feeling more national pride than English kids - it seems 'right' somehow.

<<No. But I often get the feeling that a more clear distinction is usually made between 'nationalism' and 'national pride' in France and Scotland than in England.>>

That's an interesting point - can you say more about it, or is just a feeling you have?
D6110BR   Fri May 12, 2006 4:34 pm GMT
"I am one of them. I am Anglo-Saxon and English, not British."

If you hold UK citizenship, my dear Godfrey, then you are British whether you like it or not.
Guest   Fri May 12, 2006 4:42 pm GMT
Godfrey from cosg.
Jim C, York   Fri May 12, 2006 6:00 pm GMT
Obviusly Anglo-Saxon is just a quiker way of expressing the English make up, rather than listing all the others, but in some regions they will mention the Vikings etc.

The lack of cultural identity for the English, and the feeling of being cut off from English history is quite sad. Something needs to be done, but by the government, that is the only way to keep it out of the hands of far right groups.

Does any one have any ideas on how this would be done? How was this done in Ireland, Scotland and Wales?
Benjamin   Fri May 12, 2006 6:38 pm GMT
« In a word, no. I don't see the point. I suppose if it ever seemed that the UK might leave the EU, then yes....but failing that, never. »

Very interesting — one of the main reasons for why I wish to give up my British nationality is because I do not trust (call it paranoia if you want) subsequent Labour or Conservative governments in Britain to show greater commitment to the EU. I actually mentioned this somewhere at Langcafé fairly recently, and many people seemed shocked that I would consider renouncing my citizenship over the issue of British membership in the EU; it's interesting to know that I'm not the only British person who would consider changing their nationality over this.

« How about you - you have plans to become Belgian, I think it was? Are you making any progress there? »

In order to become Belgian, it is necessary to have either lived in or had genuine ties to Belgium for at least three years. How soon I'm able to obtain this will ultimately depend on to what extent I'd be able to convince the panel that I have had genuine ties there (through prolonged temporary, but not permanent residence). I don't really see it happening for another four years at an *absolute* minimum; more realistically it would be able to happen in eight years after three years of permanent residence there.

But then, I'm going to Heidelberg in July to do an intensive language course in German to make sure that I really do want to do German (with French) at university (as I haven't formally studied it before and my experience of Germany has been rather limited thus far). If I did, I'd probably spend my third year (the year abroad) in Germany, which may or may not encourage me to re-think which citizenship I should endeavour to obtain.

Ultimately though, it's not so much about *which* citizenship to go for — it will depend on where I have been living at the time. Belgian is the obvious one at the moment for a variety of reasons, especially since it is the only one which I might be able to obtain prematurely.

« Actually, I quite agree with you about French kids feeling more national pride than English kids - it seems 'right' somehow. »

That's why I like you — any excuse to be argumentative! ^_^

« That's an interesting point - can you say more about it, or is just a feeling you have? »

I'm not sure really. When I think of 'nationalism', I think of groups such as the BNP, le Front National, and other ideologies which exist to breed racism, xenophobia and bigotry, and to encourage certain people to have a superiority complex. However, whilst I often see Scottish national pride encompassing none of these things, similar movements within England (or the whole of 'Britain') don't seem to exist to any great extent.

The Scottish National Party, for example, is a party which strongly asserts a form of Scottish national identity WITHOUT resorting to racism, xenophobia — or even Euroscepticism. (Not that I'm equating Euroscepticism with racism and xenophobia, although I do believe that it can play a part in it in some cases).

But try and find any remotely significant parties which strongly assert English or overall British national identity which are both even mildly pro-European and do not have any far-right-wing tendencies. They don't seem to exist.
Candy   Fri May 12, 2006 7:22 pm GMT
<<That's why I like you — any excuse to be argumentative! ^_^ >>

Hehe, normally I'm the stroppiest cow you'd find anywhere! :-) Must be mellowing in my old age.

<<I would consider renouncing my citizenship over the issue of British membership in the EU; it's interesting to know that I'm not the only British person who would consider changing their nationality over this.>>

I would, but it would be a last resort, definitely. And I'd be very reluctant to do it. It would feel weird not to be British - well, I still would be, in the sense that I could change my passport, but I can't change the fact that I grew up in Britain. I think you probably feel much more strongly about this than I do, as it seems (from what I've read) that you're definitely planning on doing it, whereas I'd much rather not do it at all.

But you'll have a blast in Germany in the summer, I'm sure. I like it a lot here...though I am intending to return to the UK sometime. Just not quite yet. :)

Just one more point, about Scottish (and Welsh) national pride - do you think there's an element of anti-Englishness there? In some people at least? Could that count as xenophobia or bigotry? I've had some problems in Scotland with my English accent. (Don't want to start a flame war here, I don't care that much.....just interested in Benjamin's opinion)