Are Portuguese and French accents Celtic-influenced?

Lilly   Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:23 am GMT
''2) French/Italian influenced: We use preposition EM (in) with words of movement, just like in many French/Italian phrases (andare in discoteca, aller en ville) [ir na cidade, ir na danceteria]


ir EM cidade, ir EM danceteria

this is NOT Portuguese ''


IR EM is not Portuguese, it is Brazilian. It's present in some of the best Brazilian writers. ''Fui na cidade'' (instead of ''Fui à cidade''), ''Cheguei em casa (instead of ''Cheguei a casa''), Levei ela na ilha (instead of Levei-a à ilha) is current Brazilian modern colloquial usage, but used in semi-formal writing as well. Sooner or later, it will become a norm for formal language as well. The usage of preposition EM (IN) is linked to Latin. Brazilian Portuguese, Italian and French have this usage.



Fui/Cheguei/Levei na cidade. [brazilian]
Fui/Cheguei/Levei à cidade [portuguese and obsolete/highly formal brazilian]
Guest   Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:13 am GMT
oh, gosh, here we go again, someone else complaining about Brazilian should be apart from Portuguese. Ok, i might agree about some italian influence or even spanish and french, but why u always want to keep things apart when u talk about european portuguese

Studio il portuguese da due anni ( Italian )
Estudo português há dois anos ( European Portuguese )
Estudo português faz dois anos ( Brazilian portuguese and european not so common, but also used )
Estudio el portugués hace dos años ( spanish )
Il ya deux ans que j'étudie el portugués ( French )

Che tempo fa oggi? ( Italian )
como está o tempo hoje ? ( European and Brazilian portuguese )
Qué tiempo hace hoy? ( spanish )
Quel temps fait-il aujourd hui? ( french )
How's the weather today ? ( English )

Non capisco quello che dice ( Italian )
Não compreendo o que você está dizendo ( Brazilian )
Não compreendo o que estás a dizer ( European Portuguese )
Não comprenndo o que você diz ( european Portuguese-formal )
No entiendo que me dices ( spanish informal )
No entiendo que usted me dice ( spanish formal )
I don't understand what u are saying ( english )

I can't understand why establishing relationships with every languages but getting away from European Portuguese. We even embraced some brazilian expressions as well, its common now amoug young people not to use adeus but tchau, or tudo bem?
Thaïs   Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:02 pm GMT
''Compreendo'' is not normally used in conversation, at least here in Minas. It's sounds dated. We prefer ''eu entendo'' [entendi] or ''eu saco'' [saquei].
Gringo   Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:26 pm GMT
««someone else complaining about Brazilian should be apart from Portuguese.»»

My friend it is always the same person! Only the name changed!

Lilly:
««IR EM is not Portuguese, it is Brazilian. It's present in some of the best Brazilian writers. ''Fui na cidade'' (instead of ''Fui à cidade''), ''Cheguei em casa»»

It is correct .... no one, in Brazil, says "Fui EM cidade".

"Na" is a contraction and uses the article. NA = EM+A .... so it is not the same thing! Try to learn this, it is not difficult.
Gringo   Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:01 pm GMT
"We even embraced some brazilian expressions as well, its common now amoug young people not to use adeus but tchau, or tudo bem?"

Tchau was not Brazilian influence but from an Italian song that was famous in Europe several years ago. Young people say "adeus" too.

In Portugal people say "está tudo bem contigo?" "tudo bem" is EuPortuguese but a shorter way of saying it and also very common with Brazilians.
Guest   Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:03 pm GMT
''Compreendo'' is not normally used in conversation, at least here in Minas. It's sounds dated. We prefer ''eu entendo'' [entendi] or ''eu saco'' [saquei].

http://jbonline.terra.com.br/canais/musica/mat020506.html
u say u normally dont use it, but its in there
and by the way, portuguese european also use entender, is not sumthing exclusively brazilian
JGreco   Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:33 pm GMT
"No entiendo que usted me dice "

Shoudn't it be "No entiendo que esta diciendo."

The other way sounds too formal I never really heard anybody say it the other way atleast in regular conversation.
Lolly   Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:34 pm GMT
Brazilian Portuguese is heavily Amerindian influenced:

Olha ela aí! Ela tá pulando feito uma perereca.
[nominative is used instead of accusative; conjunction FEITO, and amerindian word Perereca]
Gringo   Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:52 pm GMT
In your phrase you only have one amerindian word.


The uses of "feito" in EuPortuguese:

a) O Pedro está um homem feito.
b) Andas para aí feito uma palerma.
c) O João anda feito com a Maria.
d) A Maria anda feita com o João.
e) "Para servir-vos braço às armas feito"
f) Eles estão sempre feitos com o patrão.

[Ciberduvidas]


P.S. The topic is the Celtic influence, not Amerindian influence
Latin-Anglo-American   Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:31 pm GMT
Could we please stick to the original topic. I would like a definite answer. Does the nasal accent of French and Portuguese come from a Celtic influence?
Gringo   Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:09 pm GMT
««I would like a definite answer »»

That will be hard. Not much is known about the pre-Roman languages that were spoken in (west) Iberia. The best you will get, I think, will be a theory, not a definite answer.

If Celtic languages are the origin of the nasalization the Germanic speakers could have also contributed.

We can make a list of Celtic languages that are nasal and Germanic languages (or dialects) that are nasal just to get an idea.

Example of languages or dialects with nasal vowels:

1- Celtic – »» Breton.


2- Germanic –»» Old North, Dalecarlian, Swabian.


http://home.unilang.org/main/wiki2/index.php/Dalecarlian_pronounciation

http://hem.passagen.se/peter9/gram/f_uttal.html