I'm not referring to dialects, just accents. Which accent would you say is the prestige variety in Germany at present, and which is the most heavily stigmatised variety?
What is the acrolect and basilect in your country?
Hello everyone. This is a very interesting topic. Having been to France many times, I couldn't help but wonder what the situation is there. Does anyone know? My first guess would be that the Parisian accent is most popular, but as to the least popular I'm not entirely sure. Marseilles or some rural variety?
Sven, I can't say, as I myself really haven't been there, but rather just read about the overall situation (socio)linguistically there.
m8e,
I've heard that it's Parisian and Marseilles too. I wonder what the situation is in Canada regarding French?
I've heard that it's Parisian and Marseilles too. I wonder what the situation is in Canada regarding French?
i do note now abut French but in Chine it the dialect by Beijing that good
Sander, no I didn't know he wasn't German.
m8e, is the previous post regarding Newfoundland Canadian about English? I assumed it was French.
Xiang Pao, what is the most disliked accent in China?
m8e, is the previous post regarding Newfoundland Canadian about English? I assumed it was French.
Xiang Pao, what is the most disliked accent in China?
-"while the basilect(s) are probably Southern (particularily Texan) and New York accents."-
New York as a basilect? Why do you say that? True, New Yorkers do have some negative stereotypes(cynical, rude, we talk fast, we rush,), but they arent neccessarily demeaning ones.
I dont mean to disect your post, but I've never heard any think that about New England accents.
New York as a basilect? Why do you say that? True, New Yorkers do have some negative stereotypes(cynical, rude, we talk fast, we rush,), but they arent neccessarily demeaning ones.
I dont mean to disect your post, but I've never heard any think that about New England accents.
In Singapore, the Basilect will probably be the Colloquail Singapore English (CSE). While the Acrolect is Standard Singapore English (SSE)... As for mesolect, i am not too sure about it. Is there a distinctive difference between Basilect and mesolect / mesolect and acrolect?
Sven, who started this topic, wrote:
"In Norway, where I live, the Oslo accent is the acrolect - probably because it is the language of our capital - and the language of Toten is the most stigmatised - probably because it is associated with a heavily industrialised area. "
Well, Sven: That's probably how it looks from a narrow Oslo perspective, but I can tell you that the rest of Norway (and that is the most of the nation) certainly doesn't think so.
Norway is famous for its dialectical variation and the lack of an accepted acrolect. Of course we use one of our two literary norms (Bokmål and Nynorsk) when writing, but everybody speaks their own dialect. Of course some people from very remote areas sometimes feel a need to moderate themselves in order to be well understood outside of their region, but I as a native of the southwestern province of Rogaland would never speak Bokmål or Nynorsk to another native Norwegian!
Though when communicating with Danes, Swedes or foreigners who have learned Norwegian from a book I often use Bokmål, because that is what they understand best. But I would never consider my southwestern pronounciation of Bokmål to be Oslo dialect. It's too different regarding phonology and intonation. With my uvular r and my southwestern tendency towards lenization (soft consonants) it's just as much Danish.
Oslo people often think that because a lot of people present in the media are from Oslo and therefore speak Oslo dialect (yes, even the King speaks Oslo dialect, because he lives in Oslo!!!) Oslo dialect is the national acrolect, while we other Norwegians, when meeting with a person from Oslo think: How strange. You speak like people in TV. Have you got like no personality of your own?
Because in Norway dialects are very much connected with personality and therefore kept through life. It's totally normal for university professors to give lectures in their own dialect, for members of parliament to speak dialect in parliament, for program hosts to speak dialect on TV.
Though Eastern Norway can be an ecxeption. Because the region is totally dominated by Oslo and the local dialects rather close to the Oslo one, Eastern Norwegians sometimes are made to feel ashamed of their "hillbilly dialects" (like the Toten dialect mentioned as a basilect by Sven) when in Oslo and therefore seriously moderate themselves so that they in effect speak Oslo dialect in Oslo, on TV etc.
South-, West- and North Norwegians regard this practice with contempt and have little understanding for Oslo's people opinion that the dialects around Oslo are hillbilly-ish and base. We think they are cute and that those who speak them sound much more pleasant than Oslo people.
BTW Toten is not an industrialzed area. It's agricultural, thus a hillbilly image in Oslo. The only working class dialect in Norway is actually the sociolect of Eastern Oslo, which of course is regarded by posh people from Western Oslo (i.e. Sven...?) as base, but seen as colourful and hearty by other Norwegians.
And it is probably a contradiction in terms, a divine irony, when a acrolect/basilect topic is started by a Norwegian! Probably no other European country (except Switzerland) has such a thriving dialect diversity as Norway!
"In Norway, where I live, the Oslo accent is the acrolect - probably because it is the language of our capital - and the language of Toten is the most stigmatised - probably because it is associated with a heavily industrialised area. "
Well, Sven: That's probably how it looks from a narrow Oslo perspective, but I can tell you that the rest of Norway (and that is the most of the nation) certainly doesn't think so.
Norway is famous for its dialectical variation and the lack of an accepted acrolect. Of course we use one of our two literary norms (Bokmål and Nynorsk) when writing, but everybody speaks their own dialect. Of course some people from very remote areas sometimes feel a need to moderate themselves in order to be well understood outside of their region, but I as a native of the southwestern province of Rogaland would never speak Bokmål or Nynorsk to another native Norwegian!
Though when communicating with Danes, Swedes or foreigners who have learned Norwegian from a book I often use Bokmål, because that is what they understand best. But I would never consider my southwestern pronounciation of Bokmål to be Oslo dialect. It's too different regarding phonology and intonation. With my uvular r and my southwestern tendency towards lenization (soft consonants) it's just as much Danish.
Oslo people often think that because a lot of people present in the media are from Oslo and therefore speak Oslo dialect (yes, even the King speaks Oslo dialect, because he lives in Oslo!!!) Oslo dialect is the national acrolect, while we other Norwegians, when meeting with a person from Oslo think: How strange. You speak like people in TV. Have you got like no personality of your own?
Because in Norway dialects are very much connected with personality and therefore kept through life. It's totally normal for university professors to give lectures in their own dialect, for members of parliament to speak dialect in parliament, for program hosts to speak dialect on TV.
Though Eastern Norway can be an ecxeption. Because the region is totally dominated by Oslo and the local dialects rather close to the Oslo one, Eastern Norwegians sometimes are made to feel ashamed of their "hillbilly dialects" (like the Toten dialect mentioned as a basilect by Sven) when in Oslo and therefore seriously moderate themselves so that they in effect speak Oslo dialect in Oslo, on TV etc.
South-, West- and North Norwegians regard this practice with contempt and have little understanding for Oslo's people opinion that the dialects around Oslo are hillbilly-ish and base. We think they are cute and that those who speak them sound much more pleasant than Oslo people.
BTW Toten is not an industrialzed area. It's agricultural, thus a hillbilly image in Oslo. The only working class dialect in Norway is actually the sociolect of Eastern Oslo, which of course is regarded by posh people from Western Oslo (i.e. Sven...?) as base, but seen as colourful and hearty by other Norwegians.
And it is probably a contradiction in terms, a divine irony, when a acrolect/basilect topic is started by a Norwegian! Probably no other European country (except Switzerland) has such a thriving dialect diversity as Norway!
About German dialects:
Although people from Southern Germany and Austria usually reserve their Allamanic, Swabian, Bavarian, and Austrian dialects for communication within the neighbourhood, family, circle of friends etc., it's totally accepted to speak a more or less regionally coloured Hochdeutsch (i.e. literay German) in public. Indeed a Viennese coloured Hochdeutsch is considered rather posh in the German-speaking world (probably because of the Habsburg court).
Low German is becoming very rare and is almost never spoken in public.
People from Eastern Germany (i.e. ex-DDR) often speak more dialectically coloured than West Germans, as dialects were more accepted in
"the farmer- and worker state" DDR. Especially people from Saxony (i.e. the current federal state) often have a strong Saxon accent, something which other Germans often find amusing (and poke fun at). Bavarians are also often poked fun at because of their strong Bavarian accents, but this might also be due to other Germans being envious about these two groups (Saxons and Bavarians) having a proud tradition of using their own dialects.
About Italian:
I have heard that the best Italian is "lingua toscana in bocca romana". True?
Although people from Southern Germany and Austria usually reserve their Allamanic, Swabian, Bavarian, and Austrian dialects for communication within the neighbourhood, family, circle of friends etc., it's totally accepted to speak a more or less regionally coloured Hochdeutsch (i.e. literay German) in public. Indeed a Viennese coloured Hochdeutsch is considered rather posh in the German-speaking world (probably because of the Habsburg court).
Low German is becoming very rare and is almost never spoken in public.
People from Eastern Germany (i.e. ex-DDR) often speak more dialectically coloured than West Germans, as dialects were more accepted in
"the farmer- and worker state" DDR. Especially people from Saxony (i.e. the current federal state) often have a strong Saxon accent, something which other Germans often find amusing (and poke fun at). Bavarians are also often poked fun at because of their strong Bavarian accents, but this might also be due to other Germans being envious about these two groups (Saxons and Bavarians) having a proud tradition of using their own dialects.
About Italian:
I have heard that the best Italian is "lingua toscana in bocca romana". True?
For further posts on this topic, please consider posting on the acro-/basilect thread I made in the Languages section.
Parisian French is a defacto standard, and nowadays it is almost identical to the French of the Loire Valley that has traditionally been considered the standard. Parisians used to have a very distinct accent, but that has disappeared as the city has become more cosmopolitan and it is rare enough today that people sometimes make fun of it.
The accents of French one hears in southern France are still considered nonstandard. The French of Québec sounds bizarre to French ears as well (rather as American English must sound to some people in the UK).
The accents of French one hears in southern France are still considered nonstandard. The French of Québec sounds bizarre to French ears as well (rather as American English must sound to some people in the UK).
Were the socialites in Long Island (the Roosevelts, for instance) supposed to have possessed the poshest version of the Locust Valley Lockjaw (the Bostonian Brahmins' accent)?