The relationships between the neo-Latin languages

Ioan   Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:32 pm GMT
Romanian si Alexandru, puteti sa va comportati civilizat? Sau injuraturile sunt singurele argumente cu care puteti veni? Nu va dati in petec, va rog! INcercati sa cititi corect ca baiatul ala a zis tocmai contrariul; ca nu sintem tigani si ca numele vine de la orasul Roma... va repeziti cu capul inainte, ce naiba va infierbantati asa repede?
Alexandru   Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:17 pm GMT
Tu nu ai vazut ca primu' guest a spus ca romanii sunt slavi si tigani,iar apoi a venit un alt guest care i-a spus ca "romanii sunt o referinta la romani la Roma" nu la tigani...
Sau ce tu crezi ca intr-un articol spune ca suntem tigani si in altu' romani?
Noi de primu ne-am luat ca al doilea era altcinevva
Sal   Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:04 am GMT
I agree that written portuguese and spanish are closest to one another and same thing for spoken italian and spanish.

But one thing that I noticed that "My friend" is "Il mio amico" and "O meu amigo" in italian and portuguese and "Mi amigo" in spanish. "The boy loves the girl" is "Il poeta ama la ragazza" and "O poeta ama a menina" in italian and portuguese and "El poeta ama a la nińa" in spanish. Notice the similarity between italian and portuguese in this case.

The syntaxes or word order of italian and portuguese are more similar to each other than to spanish. Check the multi-lingual manual of your newly bought product.

There is a verb in italian which is "supporre" is "supor" in portuguese. Obviously spanish does not have an equivalent of that verb because all unconjugated verbs end only in either "ar"/"er"/"ir".

I conclude that protuguese is closest to french when it comes to phonolgy, to spanish in vocabualry, and to italian in syntax or word order.
Francis Vessigault   Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:53 am GMT
I read all messages. The idea that the French language contains very little Teutonic words from the Franks who spoke Frankish is totally false.
The Frankish warlords and aristocracy ruled Gaul for over five hundred years and introduced many hundreds of Frankish words related to social customs, colors, military affairs, justice and technical items. The words in French like guerre, garantie, gardien are related to modern English war, warranty/guarentee, warden/guardian. The colors bleu, gris, brun, blond are identical or similar to blue, grey/gray, brown, blond. The highest military rank marechal is similar to the Anglo-Saxon English word marshal.
Words like jardin, hache, hameau, canif come from Frankish and are very similar to garden, axe, hamlet, (pocket)knife. Even the geographical directions nord, sud, est, ouest (North, South, East West) come from Old English. The Teutonic Frankish, Saxon and Viking (Old Danish) left a huge impact on the French language.
Although, the bulk of the French language is Latin-based at 77%, a noticeable 22% of its lexicon is Teutonic (mostly Teutonic Frankish).
The Gothic impact on Spanish, Portuguese and Italian was far less, ranging from 1% to 3% at the most.
Guest   Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:04 am GMT
About the same percentage in Romanian: 60% or a bit more, Latin, 30% Slavic, 10% other, at the core vocabulary level. But as many neologisms make their way into its core vocabulary, its Romance character it's likely to increase.
OldAvatar   Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:22 pm GMT
For a more precise information, the officialy recognised structure of Romanian vocabulary is as follows:

Romance 71.66%
30.33% authentic Latin words
22.12% French words
15.26% scientific Latin words
3.95% Italian words

Slavic 14.17%
9.18% Old Slavonic
2.6% Bulgarian
1.12% Russian

Uknown 2.71%
German 2.47%
Greek 1.12%
Pre-Latin words 1%
Magyar 1.4%

< 1%: English, Turkish, Polish, Ucrainian and others

Some percentages are uncertain because of the fact that many words origins are under debate.

Regards
Sal   Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:07 am GMT
Who says that romanian is so removed from latin.

Well, grammatically romanian is the closest to latin even in phonology much closer than sardinian to latin. Although in vocabulary it might be the farthest.

Show a romanian text to somebody who has a little knowledge about romance languages and the first impression that he/she might have is the text is written in latin.
Augustin713   Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:58 am GMT
Thanks, OldAvatar.

Romanian is undoubtedly inconclusive.

Anyhow,

Sal, "Show a romanian text to somebody who has a little knowledge about romance languages and the first impression that he/she might have is the text is written in latin."

Romanian has been often called "barbaric" latin by scholars, due to its strange organization of words (i.e. articles at the antepeultimate & some recognizable latin-fragmented words) and its slavic with latin
pronunciation. Romanian has come a long way to it's present-day look, it didn't always look as people perceive it to be.


Note to all:
The Romanian you see typed here on antimoon is an artificial form of Romanian.
Guest   Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:32 am GMT
22.12% French words
15.26% scientific Latin words
3.95% Italian words
Take most of these out, and you'll have a slightly different picture.
OldAvatar   Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:15 am GMT
@Guest

Indeed.
On the other hand, considering some scholars oppinions, English, for example, has borrowed up to 40% of its words from French and Old French. Romanian, even in its so-called old Slavonic form, still had more than 30% of its words coming directly from Latin.

PS: The above percentage might look inaccurate due to the fact that I didn't include percentage below 1%.

Best regards
Joćo   Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:10 am GMT
I'd say that portuguese is close to spanish more than french and italian or romanian.

Written portuguese is close to spanish but spoken portuguese could be seen as close to french because of it's phonology. We portuguese have a lot of silent vowels wich resembles french and many open vowels aswell as spanish and italian.

For example bom (good) it's pronounced as french bon, spanish bueno, buono italian.
Sal   Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:32 am GMT
Agustin713 << The Romanian you see typed here on antimoon is an artificial form of Romanian. >>

I don't agree with you. Have you the late Nicolae Ceausescu speak when he was about to get arrested? If so, he was talking as if his language was latin.

What is un-latin about rumanian? It's so remarkable that despite its isolation from its sister languages sorrounded by salvic speaking people, its speakers manage to preserve its latin identity.

Joćo << Written portuguese is close to spanish but spoken portuguese could be seen as close to french because of it's phonology. We portuguese have a lot of silent vowels wich resembles french and many open vowels aswell as spanish and italian. >>

True! But just in written form but when it comes to sound system its more closely related to french and when it comes to word order to italian. Sometimes Italian and poruguese use the cognates words for the same object/idea that spanish would use another term otherwise, sometimes the spanish and italian parallel and sometimes spanish and portuguese coincide.

You see the relationship of these three languages is analogous to that of polish, czech, and slovak languages to each other and scandinavian to each other.

Spoken swedish and norwegian closely resembles each other than to danish. On the other hand written norwegian are more closely related to each other than to swedish. But all three can understand each other's speech. Same thing with polish, czech, and slovak.

Spanish, italian, and portuguese are mutually intelligible languages.
OldAvatar   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:54 am GMT
@Sal

As a matter of fact, Ceausescu never spoke a correct Romanian. His language still had archaic and rural influences, with Latin words, but dominated by Slavic accent. For example, he couldn't say "e" at the end of the words, instead, he always used the Slavic "i" (English "ee").
Guest   Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:40 pm GMT
"correct Romanian."

There is not such thing
Sal   Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:14 am GMT
OldAvatar << As a matter of fact, Ceausescu never spoke a correct Romanian. His language still had archaic and rural influences, with Latin words, but dominated by Slavic accent. For example, he couldn't say "e" at the end of the words, instead, he always used the Slavic "i" (English "ee"). >>

No matter how strong the slavic influences on romanian, it's still a romance language. Latin derived words make up 70% of its vocabulary.

Take note of english 60% of its words are latin derivative while teutonic words make up 40% but still linguist classify it as germanic/teutonic language.