British accent

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Yyyyuuuh...how could anyone forget Dick Van Dyke and his "Cockney" accent?
http://www.transasianaxis.com/vb/images/smilies/spineyes.gif

The film was on TV here over Christmas (in fact, it's on one TV channel or another every Christmas, along with the Sound of Music or the Great Escape!)

His accent wasn't Cockney at all - officialy his version was "Mockney", of a kind never ever heard anywhere within a million miles of Bow Bells, but probably no worse than that of your average Brit trying to take off an American accent of any kind.

The word Mockney existed in those days? I thought back then, it was Cockney with " " around it.

Today he is thought of as the granddaddy of Mockney.

<<The word Mockney existed in those days? I thought back then, it was Cockney with " " around it.>>

I think Damian meant "mock Cockney" by Mockney, and not Estuary.

This whole discussion has a range of silly misconceptions that are dangerous to anyone trying to learn about a particular accent (for acting for example). First of all, as has been pointed out above, there are dozens (maybe hundreds!) of different British accents. The one most Americans think of as "the" British accent is known in the UK as RP (Received Pronunciation). It is basically the accent of the higher classes of southwestern England (Oxford, Cambridge, London, etc.). Note that this is NOT the same as Cockney, etc. I don't know why Chris answered the way he did with his made-up "as different from American as possible" dialect, but no one actually speaks like that. RP has many differences from General American and will be easily recognizable as "foreign" if pronounced accurately. Among these differences:

1. R-dropping: the letter 'r' at the end of a word or before a consonant is not pronounced (that is, it only occurs before a vowel). After /A:/ and /O:/ (ie. ah & aw), 'r' is not pronounced. After higher vowels (/i:/, e:, u:, etc.) there is a schwa sound after the vowel /i@/, /e@/, etc.

2. Trap-bath split: Certain words with /{/ in American accents (the vowel in 'cat') followed by -s, -f, -th (only when voiceless ie. /T/), -nt, -ns, -mple, are pronounced instead with /A:/ (ah like in 'father'). Note that this is only pronunciation; some words are spelled differently but pronounced with this vowel. Also note that not all words with '-af', '-ath', etc. are pronounced with /A:/. Roughly the more commonly spoken and shorter it is, the more likely it is to have the bath vowel /A:/.

3. No father-bother merger: In almost all American accents, those two words rhyme, but not in RP. The first is /A:/ as explained above; the second is /Q/, a short, rounded vowel. Many Americans pronounce the vowel in 'caught' almost like this one. It is a short vowel with no gliding in or out. This occurs wherever General American (GAm) has /A:/ written with an 'o'.

4. No Mary-merry-marry or hurry-furry mergers: GAm merges many vowels before 'r', while RP preserves them. See the thread "Reversing mergers" on this forum.

5. No yod-dropping: GAm drops the 'y' sound in words like 'tune, dune, new' (after t, d, n, l, etc.). RP preserves this, or has a different phenomenon called 'yod-coalescence', mentioned above: t, d, s, z followed by the yod sound can become ch, dj, dh, zh. This occurs where the spelling has ue, ew, eu, ui, and u followed by a consonant then 'e'.

There are other differences, eg. tomato is pronounced with /A:/, etc. but these basics should start you off. See this Wikipedia page for more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_pronunciation_differences

Liz is right......."mock Cockney". Not the real works.....but at least the guy tried his best. I tried to do Cockney (or a mixture of Cockney and Estuary....like Estuockney or Cockstuary, whichever you like) when I was working down in London. At the start I was told it was pretty authentic but after about a minute or so my Scottish intonations started to creep in. I could never keep it up - maybe if I went to drama school I could as regional UK dialect and accent training is normally part of the curriculum. I can keep up up a decent English English RP much longer though - my fellow countryman Ewan MacGregor was perfect in his EE-RP in the film Mrs Potter. Only about a couple of times did I catch a trace of his natural Scottish.

As a response to Damian's entry about British accents, I strongly do not think you get it dude. I mean, Americans don't want to change their accents to British, it is ust fun sometimes to have a different way of speaking. Its not like we want to permanantly change our language. I am sure that anyone would agree with me when I say British accents are one of the most beautiful accents you may ever hear. And they make you sound smart most f the time, so whats not to love? Hey, I may only be a 13 year old actress trying to learn the accent for a part in a play I am trying out for, but don't you catch my drift here?

^just so you know, my previous entry was a response to "Damian in London" on the second forum page.^

Could somebody please explain how some words in a British accent may sound the same as they are pronounced in an American accent? What types of words or sounds need to be changed, if you know what I mean?...Thanx

Tess:

Firstly, no way would I ever suggest that Americans would want to "change their accents to a British one"......as usual, the standard RP English English accent most Americans would think of as the only British accent there is! It would be ridiculous to even think that - ok, many Americans seem to adore the "British accent", and may even associate it with "culture, intelligence and smartness" which is also a wee bit ridiculous. Just because a person speaks with a certain accent - English English or any other one - doesn't in any way mean s/he possesses all these positive qualities. A person may well speak with the cutest cut glass top rate poshest cultured "British accent" ever and still be a bit of a dumbass wally with one very lonely brain cell floating around in her/his head. If Americans wish to be taken in by all this stuff then it's down to them. I read somewhere that British accents are frequently used in advertising in the USA because it actually increases sales of products when people hear them being promoted in a British accent! If that's the case, then why not - rampant commercialism is what it's all about, especially in America more than anywhere else in the world, and that's for sure. If people are taken in, then it works.

Having said that, however, I have to agree with you - we do have a collection of very attractive accents in these islands. Such as that of this area generally - Edinburgh, the Lothians and the Borders region, there is no denying that.

But we also have some pretty dreich ones, too. Certain accents have unfortunate reputations in the UK, and are associated with negative qualities. Here in Scotland the Glasgow accent is generally regarded as the least attractive to the ear.

Down in England, the Liverpool accent (Scouse) has a similar standing, and whether deservedly or not it still has the effect of making people outside of the Liverpool/Merseyside area immediately think of dishonesty and a tendency to theft and criminal opportunism. Of course it's ridiculous to even think that as the vast majority of Scousers are honest people, but historically that's the negative image many people in the UK have of them. Films and TV programs set in Liverpool have all helped to portray this negative image of Scousers, and of their accent.

This story was on a phone-in on TalkSport radio recently when the topic was on the alleged poor customer service in the UK - shops and stores, etc. This man was from Liverpool, he had a strong Scouse accent, and was a respectable businessman who did sterling work with both a church charity and one dealing with multiple sclerosis....a paragon of virtue you might say. He happened to be in a town in the South of England somewhere and he went into a large DIY store (one of a nationally known chain) and wanted to note down some specification details for home fittings but did not have pen and paper on him, so he went to Customer Service and asked if he could borrow a pen and have a sheet of paper.

The person attending to him was a middle aged woman and as soon as he asked her for these things her immediate response was: "Oh, with that accent i don't think I should let you have them!" The implication was that he would most probably walk off with her precious pen.

The man took great exception to this and made a note of her name from her lapel badge and complained to the store management, and when the woman was apprehended she maintained that she was merely joking. Most likely she was, but he took it the wrong way because he was fed up with people automatically regarding his Scouse accent in negative terms, especially in the South of England. It was as if people thought he was a bent rogue and a scoundrel or a half wit simply because he spoke with a Scouse accent.

I've read in the book ''accents of English'' that -ing shortening (to -in') is not necessarily an indicator of lower class or informal context. It is common in RP-speaking aristocracy!!! (they say'' let's go huntin'') )

Well Damian, to tell you the truth, I live in the United States and have never been out of the country, so Iam not aware of the many different accents that you speak of. (I am strongly looking forward to visiting them someday though!). But thank you just the same for responding to my entry. I think I get a little more about what you were saying now. :)

Anyone aware of an actor/tress with a Scouse accent? I am not familiar with what that one sounds like.

Meijse:

What else does your book say? I have a play audition in three weeks and I need to master a posh British accent.

Hi Tess the link below will give you a nice idea of how the Scouse accent sounds. Scouse is a dialect from the city of Liverpool, and is not the most popular of English accents (although I think they are quite smart). If you think this is quite different to the 'normal' English accent try listening to Geordie, which is the accent of Newcastle England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhtCYfcQ-3s

And use this link for the 'posh English accent' you are trying to learn. Just type in a word and away you go.

http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=schedule&submit=Submit

Oh, I am not sure how to put the actual links in, so you will need to copy/cut the links and simply paste them into the address on your browser (the place where you type the WWW. part!!). I hope this helps you young lady.

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