The origin of the French uvular "R"

LAA   Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:49 am GMT
Is the origin of the Parisian French "uvular R" Germanic (Frankish, Burgundian, etc.), or a result of the Celtic substratum? It's of particular interest to me, as I find this sound to be difficult to pronounce at a normal conversational pace.
Kelly K   Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:00 am GMT
"The only Germanic languages where an uvular r (which I think is what you mean with guttural Parisian r) is the rule, is Danish. In German, Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian uvular r is a variety along with a rolled r. ''


But, this variety is disappearing from Modern Hight German, today it's found only in Bavaria, Switzerland and Austria, but then again, newscasters in these regions use uvular r because it has more prestige.
Kelly K   Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:07 am GMT
''Is the origin of the Parisian French "uvular R" Germanic (Frankish, Burgundian, etc.), or a result of the Celtic substratum?''

It is a normal trend in all European languages. Italian from Piemonte (Torinese accent) has uvular R instead of alveolar R. Many dialects of Portorican spanish have uvular R. Double RR and initial R is pronounced as uvular in standard/lisbon Portuguese.

In Brazil, ''hard'' R is not uvular, but more softer, like English [h]:
Rio ['hiu]
burra ['buha]
(In most Brazil (exept São Paulo and the South) this pronunciation of R is applied to any sylable -ending R: amor [a'moh], amar [a'mah], carta ['kahta]). [in some parts of Brazil, sylable-ending R is retroflex, just in American English, for example in Curitiba, city in São Paulo state]
Sami   Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:22 am GMT
If it is like English [h] why Brazilians have so much difficulty in pronouncing English words that start with h?

Hotel..... pronounced like "rotel".
Happening....pronounced like "rappening".
Hoppe ...pronounced like "roppe"


I can always tell when it is a Brazilian speaking English because of this. They pronounce the h as r.
JGreco   Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:30 am GMT
"Many dialects of Portorican spanish have uvular R"

That is very true but I must add that the Uvular "r" of Puertorrican Spanish is a Common feature for Caribbean Spanish Spoken also in the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Panama, and Coastal Caribbean regions of Colombia and Venezuela. They say that the uvular "r" that occurs in these dialects is because of Galician Portuguese in these dialects.
Tiffany   Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:21 am GMT
The uvular "r" is common in Cuban Spanish? Where did you hear this? I won't rule out some dialects of Cuban Spanish having this feature, but it is certainly not a common feature and I've never heard it. I grew up around Cubans and indeed most of my neighbors were Cuban while I still lived in Miami.

Same goes for Puerto Rican Spanish. I've never heard a Puerto Rican not trill his r's. Of course, I've heard know more Cubans than Puerto Ricans, but I would definitely say I've met my fair share.
JR   Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:06 pm GMT
Yes, I have never seen a Puerto Rican or Cuban pronnounce an uvular R. The Rs I have heard them speak are alveolar trills and flaps, just like the rest of the Spanish speaking world.

I'm basing most of this from what I hear on TV though, I only know 3 Puerto Ricans and 2 Cubans, not much to make an assumption out of.
Kelly   Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:40 pm GMT
''If it is like English [h] why Brazilians have so much difficulty in pronouncing English words that start with h?''


Brazilian Pronouncing Ramón sounds like jamón to a [latin american] Spanish ear.
JGreco   Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:30 pm GMT
Yes Brennus that is what I meant but in Panama when the "r" is at the end of the word it is kind of aspirated rather then trilled ie. the word "lugar" is pronounced "loo-gah". Other features in Panama include nasalization of certain words, ch-pronounced like sh, and "ll"/"y" being pronounced like kind of a "dzh" sound and not quite a "j" as in English. I guess this doesn't occur in other dialects of Caribbean Spanish since Tiffany and JR corrected me but it occurs in Panama.



"I have to say that I've never heard of this either although r often becomes l in Puerto Rican Spanish before a consonant (e.g. falmacia < farmacia "drugstore"; helmanita < hermanita "little sister") or at the end of a word mujel < mujer "woman")."

I never liked that pronunciation especially when I here the word "practicar" pronounced "plactical". That always annoyed me.




"Brazilian Pronouncing Ramón sounds like jamón to a [latin american] Spanish ear"


Thats funny I have a Brazilian cousin named "Ramon" which my cousins in Panama will call him "ham" in English because in spanish Jamon means ham.
JGreco   Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:08 am GMT
lol hahaha Brennus your not the only person to think that of Panamanian Spanish. In recent times in Panama there has been a lot of Brazilian migration to Panama I'm not sure why but that is how my father and mother found each other anyways there is speculation that recent speech patterns changes is because many of the Portuguese are speaking a Portunhol that ultimately has affected the dialect. There also has been the Americans who were in Panama for several decades that has brought a lot of influence to Panama. Also I have heard American tourist say that going from Costa Rica to Panama is like encountering a completely different culture. Panamanians are verrrry different than Costa Ricans in the way they speak, eat, customs, music everything is different. I think they say that Costa Rican culture is a lot more similar to Mexican culture because there has been more contact between Costa Rican and Mexicans than with panamanians.



I pose a question to you Brennus?.....

I was wondering the origins of the name of the old Panamanian port "Portobello" because that is not a spanish spelling. It means beutiful port in Portuguese but why is it spelled like that rather than being spelt "Puerto Bello".
Sergio   Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:34 pm GMT
Hi JGreco!!!

Well, my mother tongue is Spanish. I have travelled from Guatemala to Panama, being on Cuba, and spoken with Puertoricans, and I have to say that I have never heard an uvular R there!!! I do have heard the unstability of R and L, in both directions, but not an uvular R at all.

BUT (funny thing) I have heard this from some people in Mexico who seem to have problem with pronountiating the RR's. My hypothese is that this is a socio-cultural phenomenon since I've never seen this among educated people.

This comes together with the false pronountiation of the "cs" consonant cluster, which in correct Spanish sounds exactly like in English. Well, again, among not educated people (I hate to say this, but I hope you don't take me wrong), this "cs" is quite often pronounced as a "ts". But then the cluster "ps" and "ts" (which comes seldom in Spanish) becomes "cs", and then "ct" becomes "pt",
Examples:
Taxi= TaTSi
Pepsi= PeCSi
Tutsi (a brand of lullypop)= TuCSi
Cactus= CaPTus

Anyone has a possible explanation, what could have origin this shift?
LAA   Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:12 pm GMT
This is one thing that sounds very "un-Latin" like about French, along with the absence of many vowels at the ends of words. I believe this sound originates with Parisian French, which eventually became the national standard. If it is of Parisian origin, then it could very well be something that was adopted from the Germanic speaking Franks. The Dutch have a very strong, "gutteral R" sound in their language, as do many other Germanic languages, besides English and one other I believe.
greg   Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:04 am GMT
LAA : « (...) along with the absence of many vowels at the ends of words. »
Comme dans Fr <eau> = Al <wasser> = Es <agua>, Fr <lavabo> = Al <Waschbecken> = Es <lavabo>, Fr <oiseau> = Al <Vogel> = Es <pájaro>, Fr <aimée> = Al <beliebte> = Es <querida>, Fr <créée> = Al <erschaffene> = Es <creada>, Fr <aïe> = Al <au> = Es <ay>, Fr <béni-oui-oui> = Al <Jasager> = Es <conformista> par exemple ?


LAA : « If it [le <r> uvulaire] is of Parisian origin, then it could very well be something that was adopted from the Germanic speaking Franks. »
Bien sûr ! D'autant que Louis XIV est l'enfant caché de Clovis...
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:49 am GMT
I agree with greg that it doens't seem directly plausible that the uvular r in French should be of Germanic origin.
LAA, you have to remember, that the original uvular sounds in Germanic languages did not represent any r, but sounds that were written g, h and ch. (right, hleif, acht etc.)

The uvular pronounciation of r is something that spread as a French fashion from the 18th century and onwards. The popular explanation is that King Louis XVI (?) was unable to pronounce a normal, rolled r and to flatter him the court adopted his uvular mispronounciation. This history is probably just an urban legend, but the link with infantile mispronounciation might be true. It is a fact that a uvular r is easier to pronounce than a rolled r and it is a very common speech error among children in environments where rolled r is the norm.
greg   Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:25 am GMT
Fredrik from Norway : bzw. im "Louisquatorzischen" Hof, obwohl manche Sprachwissenschaftler vermuten, daß Prozeß seit dem dreizehnten Jahrhundert langsam angefangen sollte.